JHCC Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 21 minutes ago, natenaaron said: I didn't see the show. What is up with this comment? The show's main subject gave an extended spiel about the necessity of pointing the blade north during the quench in order to keep it from warping. Personally, I suspect that anyone following that dictate is going to be more careful about quenching straight on, thus creating the intended effect, but for a different reason. On 4/6/2016 at 7:32 PM, Jim Coke said: Magnetic north .. What's up with that? EVERYTHING!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 2 hours ago, JHCC said: That's why so many anvils appeal for Clement-cy. They ap peal by ringing the changes I heard... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Novice97 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 So I believe that this new show is going to turn into a blacksmithing form if "Duck Dynasty." It was admittedly watchable in the beginning Season. I think that it will make a fantastic and beautiful hobby/occupation into a horrible joke, just as "Duck Dynasty" has turned into. Though this show may actually start out without all of the producer 'tweaks' that are always made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 On 6 April 2016 at 5:22 PM, ThomasPowers said: Nope, not due north; *magnetic* *north*! Don't they teach folks these things anymore? Haven't seen the show in question so may be out of context...but there may be something in quenching in alignment with magnetic north, especially if you are going to use your knife as a compass to point north in a highly probable apocalyptic survival situation (all road signs will be destroyed, and we will all travel across country to avoid marauders, or indeed to be marauders) I recollect there isn an igneous rock which sets its magnetic polarity as it cools...it is one of the pointers to show how the planets magnetic north has shifted over the years....or conversely to date the time the volcano last erupted.... Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 4 hours ago, Francis Trez Cole said: Frosty the pan he was using was aluminum Not the thing to put acid in to etch a blade. Never heard if the customer was happy. I would not be happy the way they were testing the knife. We will have to just see where it goes. Maybe some day we can all be TV stars. It was aluminum? No wonder it was fizzing so hard. The producer probably put him up to it, vinegar in a plastic jar probably wasn't dramatic enough. I was impressed positively when he laid up his billet and couldn't fault his forging on general principles. The handle was handsome, I liked it quite a bit. But the finished blade looked crappy. I would've refused it were I the commissioner. Didn't you get the Emails about being a blacksmith TV star guy Francis? I was contacted about being a TV blacksmith working by "traditional" methods on our remote family homestead in the Alaskan wilderness. Where we live isn't a mystery we're in the phone book but just because I live in a forest doesn't mean it's remote. . . enough. Anyway, I figure if they asked ME they would've been at your front door with bags of money! Seriously I'm just a "playing with fire and hitting things with hammers is fun" kind of hobbyist. Oh well, so much for reality eh? On a serious note I'm really unhappy with the utter lack of PPE. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natenaaron Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Funny this magnetic North thing should come up now. One of my great uncles was the blacksmith in a small barely still existing town in East Texas, Powell. I was talking to my dad about him the other day and one of the old Smith tales (like an old wives tale just grungier) he taught my dad was that you give your item a final hammer with the piece facing north "to align the grain." When I laughed my dad swears every piece that went out the door, that he saw, was given a final hammer with the tip of the piece facing north. Wonder if the quenching facing north ideas come out of the original bit of folklore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 12 hours ago, Frosty said: On a serious note I'm really unhappy with the utter lack of PPE. Frosty The Lucky. A long time ago, I used to race motorcycles, and always wore the best helmet that the good folks at "Bell" could furnish. During those years, inexpensive helmets of "Oriental" origin came onto the market, and some of my fellow racers were quite happy to save a few bucks on those "helmet like objects", even though they lacked the "Snell Foundation" certification. Even at that tender age, I was aware of the futility of arguing with idiots, ... so my standard response when questioned about spending "all that money" on a certified helmet, was always, ... "I'm sure you know better than me, what your head's worth." And, more recently, no less an expert than the estimable Ron White, has observed, ... "You can't fix stupid". I've worn glasses since age 5, and can't count the times that they've saved me from injury. But, that being said, ... I'm not always diligent about using protective gear in a "proactive" fashion. Obviously, there are certain jobs and operations that are so notoriously hazardous, that the proper protective gear is a no-brainer. But generally, I hate wearing gloves, ... and rarely use them when grinding or welding. And I have the scars to prove it. So, while I'm a big advocate of using appropriate PPE, ... I'm not exactly the "poster boy". . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 I'm a relative newb and have relied on the direction my new shop dog is facing when he 'unloads' in the yard. Scientific research has suggested this is magnetic north so maybe I'm okay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 1 minute ago, RogueRugger said: I'm a relative newb and have relied on the direction my new shop dog is facing when he 'unloads' in the yard. Scientific research has suggested this is magnetic north so maybe I'm okay? Depends,... what kind of dog is it ? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 4 minutes ago, SmoothBore said: Depends,... what kind of dog is it ? . This kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 1 hour ago, JHCC said: This kind. Not quite 8D . Finn (MacCool) is a Border-Aussie mix we picked up from someones doorstep. The 'mix' probably explains why he might be a less than reliable directional indicator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 1 hour ago, JHCC said: This kind. Good one! I haven't heard the story about letting your work cool pointed north in years. It will magnetize it more effectively though. As a Boy Scout we learned how to float a thin piece on steel on water or a small wood chip to make a compass. We learned from one Scout Master about heating the wire or whatever to bright red in the camp fire then floating on water or laying it pointed NS and letting it cool to make a better compass. How? You determine NS be floating it before heating it, then let it cool on the mark. Of course you don't know which end is pointing N, unless you know where the sun rises & sets. Letting it cool NS WILL magnetize but . . . helpful? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueRugger Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 47 minutes ago, Frosty said: Good one! I haven't heard the story about letting your work cool pointed north in years. It will magnetize it more effectively though. As a Boy Scout we learned how to float a thin piece on steel on water or a small wood chip to make a compass. We learned from one Scout Master about heating the wire or whatever to bright red in the camp fire then floating on water or laying it pointed NS and letting it cool to make a better compass. How? You determine NS be floating it before heating it, then let it cool on the mark. Of course you don't know which end is pointing N, unless you know where the sun rises & sets. Per discussion in the 1960 Soviet Patent 16,915 EFFECT OF HEAT TREATMENT AND NITRIDING ON THE MAGNETIC PROPERTIES OF AUSTENITIC STEELS you don't need to have the wire pointing north as it cools (seriously). At least the producers didn't have them urinating on the metal as a quench to increase the strength or more interestingly run the sword through another contestant for heat treatment. (urine proven for aluminium but not sure about ferrous.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 Ah that's right they quenched NS to prevent warping! No wonder Boy Scout compasses don't have warped pointers! Quenching in urine would have some affect over clear water due to a higher boiling temp about 7%. Same for blood, about 7% but I don't know about the other stuff in blood, maybe the captive or slave's body temp serves as a pre heat? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve2md Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Frosty said: Ah that's right they quenched NS to prevent warping! No wonder Boy Scout compasses don't have warped pointers! Quenching in urine would have some affect over clear water due to a higher boiling temp about 7%. Same for blood, about 7% but I don't know about the other stuff in blood, maybe the captive or slave's body temp serves as a pre heat? Frosty The Lucky. Anybody friends with a butcher?? Quench a blade Point North in a vat of 98.6 degree(f) pig blood and see what happens? Should smell tasty.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Saw a couple more episodes last night. I must say, I'm a lot more impressed with this guy's gunsmithing skills; that was a beautiful bit of work he did on making the poor boy rifle. Otherwise, there's still WAAAAAY too much of the "old legends and secret formulas" nonsense (seriously, does this guy not know that anyone can look this stuff up online?), and the show can't seem to make up its mind whether it wants to revere Ozark culture or make fun of hillbillies. The parts of him working are getting a little better; everything else is getting worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 On April 8, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Scrambler82 said: The smithy took cable and braided it and forge welded the end before braiding. I have to ask. Did the guy do it or did the building do it? The way you wrote it was surely a typo as we all know a building isn't able to braid cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo T Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 On 4/6/2016 at 3:28 PM, notownkid said: My question is do our friends down under have their quench tank facing Mag north as well. Certainly answers why I've had so much trouble over the years. Going to paint a big arrow on the floor of the shop. Don't bother... I set up due north a couple of times just to find the floor of the shop has moved and its not pointing the right way anymore. You'll just have to paint a new arrow....time and time again. As far as the series goes, I found it interesting, and somewhat informative. Their cast lead bullets were made out of old wheel weights (getting harder to find) instead of pure lead and the Smith seems to be using really poor coal with an excess of Sulphur and phosphorous in it. On 4/9/2016 at 5:05 PM, Frosty said: Ah that's right they quenched NS to prevent warping! No wonder Boy Scout compasses don't have warped pointers! Quenching in urine would have some affect over clear water due to a higher boiling temp about 7%. Same for blood, about 7% but I don't know about the other stuff in blood, maybe the captive or slave's body temp serves as a pre heat? Frosty The Lucky. Come on Frosty, you forgot about the surfactant effects of the urine, allowing less vapor formation at the quenchent/steel barrier. Allowing for more rapid, uniform heat transfer with less likelihood of warping. Jeesh...wood ashes work too and the Smithy doesn't smell like a skunk factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Linotype used to be the preferred material for bullets; but cut with some pure lead as it was if anything too hard. We may have to go back to first principles and buying new metal and alloying it ourselves if the scrap sources dry up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 So I finally got to check this show out. I wanted to give it a fair shake, really I did. 10 minutes into the Bowie knife episode, I had to quit. Aside from the made-up garbage like blacksmithing being a dying craft and there not being many smiths left, I found the non-smithing parts of the show to be incredibly stupid. Reminds me of that old saying, if you don't have any honor, at least have some shame. I understand folks wanting to make some money and I'm sure the actors in the show are happy for a paycheck. As a viewer, I certainly won't be going back. There's nothing on the show that I need to know or learn that isn't also available through quality youtube videos done by quality folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve2md Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Linotype used to be the preferred material for bullets; but cut with some pure lead as it was if anything too hard. We may have to go back to first principles and buying new metal and alloying it ourselves if the scrap sources dry up... For black powder muzzle loaders, pure leasd is best. You want it as close to dead soft as possible. Linotype was outstanding for alloying cartridge bullets. I haven't been able to source any cheaply for quite a while now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 NO I didn't "forget" the surfacant qualities of urine, they just aren't significant compared to the higher boiling point. If the quenchant doesn't boil it stays in contact for even chilling. Urine's surfacant component is ammonia and fresh is pretty low %. How long do you want to keep it around ripening? like wheel weights for: bullets, "babbit," hammers, sinkers, etc. the antimony content leaves it reasonably malleable but it holds together better. Maybe I should buy a muzzle loader and bullet molds, I have buckets of wheel weights. I have to agree Vaughn, "Iron and Fire" is turning out to be a dog and pony show spouting hollywood . . . stuff. I think I'll see if I can find a "contact" (HAH!) link on the "Iron and Fire" page and maybe make some helpful comments. Maybe if enough of us comment and offer some realistic input the show will improve. "Forged in Fire" is getting better, neither will ever be instructional programs but they don't have to be such fantasy bull either. Maybe if a few hundred blacksmiths call them on "vanishing craft" BS. they'll stop blowing STUPID smoke. It's TV so it's going to blow smoke but . . . REALLY! If someone finds a good contact link to the producers of the show, please post it here so I don't have to frustrate myself hunting through the "LIKE US" links. If I stumble on one I'll post it here. Maybe we can make contact from several different directions. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Steve; best for rifled guns; I don't think it's as important for smoothbores, (I have a 2" smoothbore falconette). I used to have a print shop behind my house and when they shut down they were tossing linotype in the dumpsters the idjits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The History channel put a post on the NV smithing Facebook page stating that they are looking for smiths and armor makers for upcoming shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 24 minutes ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said: The History channel put a post on the NV smithing Facebook page stating that they are looking for smiths and armor makers for upcoming shows. Probably good our FB group is closed too keep down the babble from the little kids' table. I was contacted more than a year ago about appearing in a Discovery/history (it wasn't clear who) program. The parameters they were looking for makes me think "Iron and Fire" is the show. An artist, author, etc. demanding to maintain artistic control is guaranteed deal killer as far as TV is concerned. I think "Homicide Hunter" is the only exception to the rule I know of, Joe Kenda TOLD them how he was going to do it or they could suck eggs. The first episodes were so popular they had to fold. I don't think we'd have much pull as blacksmiths, too many folk with a hammer and anvil are dying for their 15 minutes and a paycheck. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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