Dan P. Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Very nice piece, Dan P!!! Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Meta discussion: Note too that some smithing traditions are a bit more rigid about being the "only way". (In particular some of the German Smiths and people trained in their tradition that I have met had strong views that *their* way was the *only* way and their teaching tends to reflect this as compared to some other traditions of "anyway that works"---of which I am one). Also watch out for setting up a "strawman" by implying that *all* groups teach a single method of *anything*. Having seen some of the repairs made by my great grandfather in a small hill town in Arkansas, USA, during the great depression I can attest that he was willing to do as much as he could for as little as possible using whatever they could get. The "quality" needs to be viewed by the requirements. He still ended up with over 900 acres of land--- I'm assuming he traded work for land if needed. I am reminded of two great knifemakers I knew: One taught that pattern welded billets should be forged at almost welding temps so that the welds wouldn't shear. The other taught that you should forge gently at low temps so the welds wouldn't shear. They both did excellent work going the way that worked for them. (I'm with the high temp guys as it's easier to forge that way!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am a nobody on this site, but I will completely agree with the disappointed comment. Which one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausfire Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I am a nobody on this site, but I will completely agree with the disappointed comment.I don't think any of us are 'nobodys' on this site. At least I hope not. Those of us of lesser experience may feel at times overwhelmed by the expertise and knowledge of the recognised smiths who contribute here, but we all had to start somewhere, and there is a lot to be learnt here.This thread is about forge welding ... I have never been able to achieve that, but once you cut arouns all the bias and argument, it is hoped that we can all glean some meaningful direction to help us on the path to being better at what we do.Pictures and videos help much more than words, and I have been directed to a forge welding video by Mark Aspery, which explains in simple terms how to forge weld. I don't know if what he does on that video meets with the approval of all contributors to this thread, but I would certainly like to be able to weld two pieces of 3/8 rod together like that.() Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitch4ging Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Good post, Ausfire, you hit it on the head. There is some very skilled individuals here, if we can get past the different opinions and just try what makes sense to us. Maybe at some point someone will prepare a standard for testing these welds, then maybe some of these more experienced smiths can test both or more methods and test them, and post non-biased results. Regards, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 He does address the thinning of the areas immediately adjacent to the weld, but in a different procedure because he is doing a walkthrough for a drop tong style weld, rather than a single bar faggot weld. concept remains the same though, you need additional mass at and adjacent to the weld in order to be able to shape and consolidate the weld without thinning out the parent stock on either side of the weld, be it from stray blows or scale losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Thanks for the video. A very good explanation of solid practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Very good video! Mark is addressing fundamental elements of forge welding that we all should and can be aware of, if we pay attention and notice what happens with our actions. I am sure Mark is well aware of what happens and why in the case of the weld that was specifically addressed in this thread. We are having a nice conversation on Facebook about this same issue and posting solutions. I do wish I was more computer literate. And like I say, just do it in clay. Mark Aspery's other forge welding video is also a very good one to watch. It was posted on Facebook in our discussion. I think some people are confusing these welds with what I'm trying to address. They are not the same at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Mark Aspery's other forge welding video is also a very good one to watch. It was posted on Facebook in our discussion. I think some people are confusing these welds with what I'm trying to address. They are not the same at all. Brian, I'm interested in how the branch welds holding the leaves together in the video are different from the weld that you are trying to address. They seem pretty much identical to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 But they are not the same at all! Reread this thread or just try it with 3/8" or 1/2" square stock like they teach it here or just do it in clay. The results are always the same. You have to do something to remedy these conditions like what Michael Budd shows or the other things discussed so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Gerald while in a sense I understand your position, I hope you truely do not speak for all professional smiths. I for one do not need convincing of anything, I will try for myself, what I need is exposure and discussion. Is that not the point of this site? Discussion, and exchange, and learning (as well as some fun hopefully). I hope for the pros it is has not become "old hat" and they will continue to want to share and learn and exchange. I recognize that its a great previlige to get your participation and that of any of the professionals that frequent the site. Thanks! I wish more would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 ... cutting or folding over 1/2" or 3/8" square stock and welding the end to form the tapered poker end? How is this different from the welds in the video (not a rhetorical question)? I ask because you praise the welds shown in the video, while having taken the entirety of this thread to disparage one of the very same welds. It's quite peculiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Yes, Eddie Mullins, I enjoy talking about these things, learning more, and finding solutions. I would like to be able to discuss many more things here on IFI. The only weld that is similar in Marks other video that I mentioned is where he cuts and doubles back the pieces on top of themselves. Now his pieces are round, so that is a plus, but the thinning out of the stock at the base of two overlapping pieces still does occur but to a lesser degree and he is holding on to both pieces. He scarfs all the other pieces before he welds them end to end in the same line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 No, the weld that is identical to the one you disparage in this very thread is the branch weld between the leaves. It is the exact same weld as is frequently used at the end of a poker. It's either very good or it's shockingly bad. I'm really just curious which description you want to go with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted April 1, 2014 Author Share Posted April 1, 2014 Dan P, the one with square stock and the free taper or piece your not holding on to. The one I've seen most blacksmith groups start people out with, not the one Mark is doing with round stock and holding onto both pieces. Try it with no prep except a taper and a cut then fold it back on original square stock then pry it apart and you will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 I have to admit, i'm not getting the point here. If I scarf the end of a square rod (as in the video) and fold it over, flux it well, and get it to welding temp, then hammer it sound and soild, how is this a weaker weld than if it were 2 seperate pieces? If I wanted to attach a leaf branch to a main stem, it would still be one part scarfed (The leaf end) and one solid bar (The main branch), isn't that the same thing? The only difference I see is that one is looped and then cut while the other is not, is that the point of all this? That it's better to use 2 pieces rather than one? Why? I don't see the difference. (Sorry if it's obvious to some of you, but I just don't get it, and I'd truly like to learn.) Gerald, while I appreciate you being set in your ways, and i'm glad to hear you're making a profit from your craft, discussions like these open up alternatives to habits we've taught ourselves, and hopefully we may learn a better simpler way to work (saving you time and lost income!) Your opinions (as well as those of the other professionals who post here) and your views are an important part of this, and any time spent adding useful input to these discussions may take a buck or two of your time, but it's worth millions to new guys like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Dan P, the one with square stock and the free taper or piece your not holding on to. The one I've seen most blacksmith groups start people out with, not the one Mark is doing with round stock and holding onto both pieces. Try it with no prep except a taper and a cut then fold it back on original square stock then pry it apart and you will see. I'm not quite sure what you mean by the piece you are not holding on to versus holding on to both pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perry Thomasson Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 Alec- That is a very good explanation with the photos! Perry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CleetisMorgan Posted April 1, 2014 Share Posted April 1, 2014 The disappointed comment by LastRonin. I come to this site because it has great info. I mean GREAT. Second to none. That said , I dislike paging through 100 replies of which 25 are related to the subject matter and the other 75 are "discussion". By that I mean ego-enhanced discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Ok, - say I started with a 1/2" square bar and was to make a fire poker that the client wanted a point on the end with a "S" shaped hook going back towards the handle - hence the basic cut fold weld situation...... HOW can this be done so its a sound weld??? simple as that - the picture Paul posted is fine for a leaf branch situation - very understandable and easy,The issue is - what type of scarf is needed to make a cut, fold, weld sound??? (with the normal 1/2" x 1/2" stock, that a lot of ppl use for pokers) - cut fully apart and upset each end as Pauls posted pictures???(Brians picture/sketch) - (I'm starting with a 1/2" square bar) - if so ok.The topic started as with a faggot weld that many/most ppl make a fire poker with 1/2" square bare - that's what I'm trying to stay with "ON TOPIC" of a faggot weld used in the simple 1/2" square bar fire poker that the majority of ppl use, and are taught to make. - "HOW" is the sound weld made with this stock using a cut, fold , weld method??? I would like to know how to scarf 1/2 x 1/2 square bar for a cut ,fold forge weld (SOUND WELD). - that's "All" I'm asking. I know there is alternative ways to do this , but can it be done with 1/2" x 1/2" square bar in the "CUT, FOLD, FORGE WELD METHOD"?See attached Image that shows the typical thinning of each side of the weld mat'ls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I think there are 2 issues here the stock thinning beside the weld and the strength of the weld itself The difference between the "blob" weld posted and the regular faggot weld is the heavier section in the weld zone so that any thinning will leave the bar at a constant section. Having the heavier section is definitely good practice. However if the weld is done very carefully like Dan P has shown us with his nice work posted the thinning is minimal. Did you upset the stock prior to welding Dan? Rather than upsetting the bar tapering the bar away from the weld location is another way to end up with more material for the weld. The sharp inside corner on a faggot weld that does not have a glut welded into it essentially is a crack in the weld whether there is thinning or not. A solid faggot weld will still hold for a fire poker. While I would be very unhappy if a poker I made failed at the weld it is not a life and death situation like a lifting device. poker .PDF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 All that being said most of the pokers I have made are for outside firepits and I make them 30-36" long and I start with 5/8 to 3/4" stock taper it down to about 3/8" square leaving a heavy section on the end. I flatten that out to 3/8" flat punch a hole and split the end to make the hook. 3/8" square is plenty on the business end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 All that being said most of the pokers I have made are for outside firepits and I make them 30-36" long and I start with 5/8 to 3/4" stock taper it down to about 3/8" square leaving a heavy section on the end. I flatten that out to 3/8" flat punch a hole and split the end to make the hook. 3/8" square is plenty on the business end. Bingo...I mentioned something similar a few pages ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 As Dan P has done - I've also worked with forge welding on small sections and everything was fine afterward - as in the attached picture of an 18th Century Flesh Fork I made a couple years ago.This is another example of during the welding I was doing I noticed the topic of this thread - "The thinning of the parent metal on both sides of the weld. I welded very gingerly so as to keep them from thinning to much. Yes it can be done but this is not I agree a sound weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 I like your fork a lot, Jeremy. I love that style; it seems to me a style very natural and compatible to forgework. I don't personally think that such welds can be practically upset. It's hard to tell, but is the thinner material on your fork around 1/8" by 1/2"? Not too easy to upset! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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