brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Here's another question: Has anyone ever made a secured and sound weld with the way most associations teach " beginners" here in America to make a poker by cutting or folding over 1/2" or 3/8" square stock and welding the end to form the tapered poker end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I've made a bunch of pokers so can comment intelligently on this one... Some faggot welds stick really well and some don't - it appears to be a combination of getting the weld joint correct, the fire to the right temp and sufficient stock reduction after the weld. I have done "peel" tests on the hook side of the poker and broken quite a few - but some will hold. I typically hammer the weld side into a half round swage prior to nicking the stock so I get a good clean middle for the weld surfaces after folding. This goes a long way to helping the slag squirt out when welded. Now, if you are aiming again toward the subject of stock size reduction by forging, I can also say that a piece of 3/8 or 1/2 by 1 flat bar can be split and forged very cleanly without having to worry about the weld taking. Works 100% of the time... I have done both methods and don't have a preference for either one but welding will yield more problematic results over time (i.e., more broken welds). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 I understand what you're saying, HWooldridge, but I'm talking very specifically about a practice that has been introduced into most of the associations in America that have beginners,some days on their first day, do what I mentioned above, and if so, has anyone ever arrived at a sound and secure weld. Then also would follow producing a piece that is sound, secured, and not structurally compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yes I have done it that way successfully before. (And I have also run into steel that doesn't like to weld to itself; sometimes grinding off the "bark" will help) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yes I have done it that way successfully before. (And I have also run into steel that doesn't like to weld to itself; sometimes grinding off the "bark" will help) I think Brian is being very specific so everyone should read his question carefully before responding to this thread. He states, "I'm talking very specifically about a practice that has been introduced into most of the associations in America that have beginners,some days on their first day, do what I mentioned above, and if so, has anyone ever arrived at a sound and secure weld. Then also would follow producing a piece that is sound, secured, and not structurally compromised." And my answer to that specific question is, "No, I have not". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 HWooldridge's Approach of swedging is one method that improves the results of this type of faggot weld but I find the assurance of getting a secure weld still sketchy. I also think that teaching this weld to beginners by just folding and welding is an injustice to the student. ( This type of weld is probably more successful with wrought iron. ) My method ( perhaps hard to describe and understand) Is to scarf the bar 180* apart above and below the cut and 90* from the cut where it will be folded. Then the piece is folded at the cut and the apposing scarves overlapped to complete the weld. Brian hope you understand this cryptic explanation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Really, I'd like to see the sound one. I present a challenge to everyone out there show everyone a structurally sound poker" done by the book",so to say. I talked about this subject with many different people, and I have never seen it done. I've seen it taught and done it many times to make a point, but the results are always the same. You stick the weld, the act of hitting two pieces of the same size and dimension promotes a taper, so the grabber end of the poker kicks off of the handle end of the poker. The more you hit the more it tapers. You may weld the taper securely, but the transition from the parent stock to the taper becomes weaker than the parent stock. It will kink if stressed ,instead of bend. And the base of the taper where you need a secured weld does not have the opportunity to be struck enough so that part will peel away when put under stress. I've only used this method as a way to show why you need a sufficient scarf so you can make a true and secure weld, but I think it's worth talking about if we want to go farther in our associations and learn and share this old craft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brian, Either you were posting as I was and didn't read my post or as I thought it was too cryptic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brian - Is the welding of branches together by laying them on top of the other basically doing the same thing after welding (creating a tapered section that is less then the main parent stock - hence a bit weaker?) even though some upsetting/scarfing is still done before the welds.I guess by this, I mean are you saying that a weld that starts out with parallel bars will almost always never be a secure weld by forge welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brian - What do you mean " done by the book" ? If you mean done the way you describe with all it's flaws then the book needs to be rewritten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Sorry guys, I'm slow. By the book, means how I've seen many places start people in blacksmithing by having them do this. Any one involved with associations hopefully knows what I mean. It is a common practice here in America. Yes, there are remedies to this, and yes I think it should be stopped the way it's been presented, and yes the same thing can happen on anything that you don't have ample scarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Interesting, I've done it with round 3/8, but never tried square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 So Brian - Your talking about the typical formation of the weld after welding a fire poker that were it's welded is a tapered section of both halves that is the weak area that looks like this:faggot weld.bmp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Exactly, Jeremy. Most I've seen don't usually try and weld as much material as the one in the illustration, but the results would be the same. And one piece is always beaten smaller than the other piece. It's predictable, and it's observable. Round is a better choice, arcc, but if you reduce it beyond its original dimension the same results will happen. The only way to make a sound forge weld without compromising structural integrity is to scarf amply in some way or reduce the material that is not being welded. A sound weld would pass x ray tests, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Sorry guys, I'm slow. By the book, means how I've seen many places start people in blacksmithing by having them do this. Any one involved with associations hopefully knows what I mean. It is a common practice here in America. Yes, there are remedies to this, and yes I think it should be stopped the way it's been presented, and yes the same thing can happen on anything that you don't have ample scarf. Brian, Thanks .I'm glad we're both on the same page again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Brian - how or what would you do to make the "COMPLETE SOUND WELD"? Do I dare ask for some pictures?(I know there has been some lost pictures inadvertently before from many other ppl including yourself).The picture I drew in the above post is not exactly true and relative to size - but just a reference to the mentioned topic area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keganthewhale Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I understand what you are saying, and I know this is a bit off to the side of the topic at hand, but when I was first tought to forge weld they brought in a bucket of old horse shoes and had us scarf the top of one tip of the shoe, flip it over and scarf the opposite tip. Then you would clean off the scale, overlap them, add flux, then bring to welding heat and it's one easy hit and it usually welded for first timers (providing they were at the appropriate heat and cleaned/fluxed beforehand) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 There were some pictures. I can try to put some up in the future, but now is not a good time. I have other things I have to do before I leave Sunday. It is simple to explain,though.there are different ways of forming scarfs. What people call, traditional scarfs which are usually upset from your structural members. There's what I call the, blob weld, where you leave parent stock and forge down your structural members. Or you could add a collar around your structural members. There are many more joints that can be done also, but let's stay with the simple branch welds for now, like the poker and leaves that you mentioned. Which ever way you choose, if you don't have an ample scarf your weld or your structural members would be compromised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 At our last association meeting we repaired a cracked postvise leg forge weld. Since it was still together we did not scarf it but we did forge out a strip of WI and wrapped it in a spiral around the original weld area and welded everything up tight---like a gun barrel weld but we wanted it to weld to the center rod... Also an example of strengthing a forge weld by adding extra material---something not mentioned above. Most pokers would not suffer in use from having a bit of a knob at that point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 for what its worth I did the exact classroom weld brian mentioned a few months ago as part of my CBA 1 certificate, there was no scarf or pre-weld preparation called for, just nick, bend, weld, point. I know for a fact that in my efforts to try and assure a sound weld I ended up chasing the weld probably about an inch farther than needed and the actual weld section is considerably thinner than parent at the joint (3/8 round IIRC), so I am definitely concerned that the hook will fail if it sees a carelessly strong tug against a stubborn object. I don't have a picture of it handy right now, ill try to remember to snap one when I get home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 This is pretty much the same weld as used in a rams head poker in that application all that is needed is to get the head to stay together as its purely decorative. I have always punched and riveted a hook into the end if one is wanted as I found the drawn out aesthetic of the faggot welded end a little weak. Are you saying that this weld is not fit for purpose? The demands of a fire poker hook are not very strenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Exactly! And, yes, Thomas piling on is another way of adding material to a weld. Good point, Basher, a serviceable weld for the job at hand would also be part of the criteria for any weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Greetings All, I never had much luck with a strong weld by just folding it over and welding... I come to the conclusion that the formed ring would vibrate on the first hit and create problems.... My preferred method is to upset the end and form a convex scarf with a tail... The base stock I would form to a concave form. (spoon like). I would form this so the loose end was as close to the parent stock as possible to limit vibration... The overall weld area would come out to be about 3/4 of an inch on a 1/2x1/2 weld .. After the weld a true up at welding temp .. Just my 2c Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 27, 2014 Author Share Posted March 27, 2014 Yep, Jim Coke. And Chinobi, CBA is where I first saw this weld, also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Very interesting discussion. I may have to play with this now when I get a chance. I've got a picture of the poker I made years ago at the house(the actual poker was given as a gift) and I'll see if the same problem is evident on it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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