kubiack Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 I believe this method is taught to beginners so that they can learn to make a forge weld with as few variables as possible. When the stock is simply folded over on itself and welded there is only one piece to hold, is self aligning, and does not need to be held with tongs. The student has only to worry about the heat and hammer blow. At the end of the exercise they have also made something usually a fire poker that they can take home with them. Generally scarf welds are taught after this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Here is the poker I made from the method a year or two ago. I wish it was a closer picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Kubiack I think that's a step in the right direction, but (insert salt here, this is just from my learning journey) there is an even more basic weld used as the 101 level. The first forge weld I ever did was in Aspery's Mastering the Fundamentals course, which was a faggot weld to make a flux spoon. Form up a blunt scarf on the end, knuckle it over onto itself about as tight as possible, brush/flux, weld. No divergent arm to worry about, little opportunity to create a thin spot in the process a well. That is the faggot weld as introduced to me as my first welding experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Here's another question: Has anyone ever made a secured and sound weld with the way most associations teach " beginners" here in America to make a poker by cutting or folding over 1/2" or 3/8" square stock and welding the end to form the tapered poker end? Anybody with basic competence in smithing could make a sound weld in this fashion. Are you promoting a book or DVD or something, Brian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 No, Dan P, I don't have any books or DVD's or anything else to promote. I'm just trying to communicate with people who want to learn like myself and others on this forum. I have never seen a structurally sound weld done in this fashion, Dan P. Why don't you do a video and show us how it's can be done. Don't forget to leave out the stress tests. For anyone else that wants to prove this for yourself, just do the same set up with clay and see what it does. Metal can only do what it can do in any given circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 It's important that you not confuse "structural", "structurally sound" and "sound" in terms of fire welds. It's an easy weld to make. Does it have very much strength? No, but plenty for its intended purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 You can't even shape the hook part without having to put the base of the two pieces in the vice. Otherwise, it will kink where the pieces are reduced before the weld and/or spring the weld. Anybody with basic competence in smithing knows that, and would solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You can't even shape the hook part without having to put the base of the two pieces in the vice. Otherwise, it will kink where the pieces are reduced before the weld and/or spring the weld. Anybody with basic competence in smithing knows that, and would solve the problem. I think you're getting the picture, Brian! Or, you could hold the business end in an appropriate pair tongs, then bend the hook with scroll tongs, or carefully use a hammer. Or, you could quench out the part you do not want to kink or bend, before bending the hook. Many ways to skin this particular cat, and no need to put any undue stress on the weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 That's funny! Getting the picture? These points are exactly why I brought this all up! The associations are teaching what not to do. A blacksmith should not start with some bar of steel and make it weaker than it started. Blacksmithing has to do with creating structural elements, just like a scroll, if it has a weak spot, it will kink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm not sure what you are saying here, Brian. A tree trunk is a very strong piece of wood, and if you want to turn into a beautiful and elegant rocking chair, you are going to comprimise that strength. That doesn't mean the rocking chair is going to collapse as soon as you sit in it, if it was made competently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Come on Dan P. Do I really have to spell it out for you? It's just like your rocking chair illustration. I buy steel bars. A wood worker buys boards. I don't carve material away like a wood worker would, but I forge the metal to form the structural elements for any given job. If I don't take in to consideration the physical properties and the structural integrity of what I'm building, there will be consequences that I'll have to deal with, like fussing with shaping a poker, for example. If I take out the errors that can occur in a given project, it will give itself to me with no fussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Come on Dan P. Do I really have to spell it out for you? It's just like your rocking chair illustration. I buy steel bars. A wood worker buys boards. I don't carve material away like a wood worker would, but I forge the metal to form the structural elements for any given job. If I don't take in to consideration the physical properties and the structural integrity of what I'm building, there will be consequences that I'll have to deal with, like fussing with shaping a poker, for example. If I take out the errors that can occur in a given project, it will give itself to me with no fussing. The problem is, there is no error to take out. You are chasing a total non-issue here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Try some other approaches than what you were taught, and then get back to me, you'll see. Better yet, Dan P, if we can make time at the IBF this August in England. We could do a little demo on this subject. I hope you will be there. It should be a good event. Alec Steele, Daniel Lea, and Daniel Riffe will be demonstrating with me, and we hope to get others up there with us if we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 This is why I love this place, different views and different ways to do things. I was taught the scarf/fold over/ weld and cut approach to the fire poker. I have had some stick and some come apart. Brian, are you saying it's better to make the 2 pieces seperately and then weld them? Why would this be any different if the scarf is clean and lines up with the larger half? Is it just that you don't have to work the piece any further, and possibly jeapordize the weld? I wonder which appraoch would make a stronger weld? I think we need some videos, and maybe a little testing here. Who's poker could lift more weight by the smaller point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 They used to weld up the main drive shafts of large navel ships out of many lengths of real wrought iron so I guess such welding can be done with strength. I have seen a number of examples of "mission critical" forge welds that were considered not only "ok" but "good"---remember the old film about forge welding and testing of anchor chain? And people even today recycling that chain that has been used and abused for 80+ years? As far a pokers, I have seen forge welded ones from the 1920's that are still in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 JimsShip, I'm simply saying if you don't have enough material to work with, you cannot secur a weld and because they are the same starting size, you end up hitting where you don't weld. That causes the pieces to hit into each other and that makes your starting pieces thinner at that point which makes it weaker than it was to start with in that plane. That is why it needs to be held to shape it, otherwise it will kink and or spring your weld. You can only weld the point, and the other pieces are fighting you at the crotch of the weld. Withou beefing the original pieces up somehow (scarfing), it is impossible to secure a weld. This is a fundamental principal in forging that should be known before attempting a weld. You can use clay to prove this. It is predictable, observable, and knowable. That type of weld that is taught here in the states is a perfect way of proving the need for the scarf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 heres the promised pic of mine, I believe it demonstrates exactly what brian just wrote above. in chasing the weld and trying to secure it I kept hitting the parts that were beyond the weld and inadvertently forged them down thinner than parent stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thank you, Chinobi! There's nothing wrong with showing this weld to others to help them understand forge welding as you are aware of its limitations and know that it cannot work. I usually just draw it and explain why, or do it with clay, and then show other ways that do work, like mentioned before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Chinobi, if you pulled at that weld would it break? It looks like a solid weld to me, and I'd be happy with that result. Sorry Brian if I'm confusing the matter more, but you say welding this way "cannot work", but it looks (at least to my amature eyes) like it has. Can you post a pic of your way for comparison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 That's the real point I'm trying to make. People are teaching people how not to do things, and it causes a lot of confusion. Understanding fundamental principals of forging is not being taught very much, so people don't even see what is right before their eyes. The weld is stuck, but it is not sound. It will pop if put under stress, and it will also kink where the material has been reduced at the base of the handle and hook. And, yes, a lot of "hit and miss" occurs. It is a disservice to anyone who wants to learn this craft to teach this method as though it gives a good result. Enabling someone to make a poker does not teach them much, and it blinds people to the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 What I am getting from Brian is that this should not be taught as a weld method for anything that would need structural strength. It might would work for the poker, which shouldn't be subject to serious force. Please correct me if I am wrong Brian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think where the "disconnect" occurs, ... is when "Traditional" techniques are applied to Non-Traditional materials. Modern Steel simply DOES NOT respond in the same fashion as Wrought Iron. So, ... what is "proper" technique, ... is totally subjective. For me, "Form" definately FOLLOWS "function", ... and I wouldn't dream of knowingly producing questionable work, ... FOR ANY REASON. I like to think those "Old Time" Blacksmiths were also producing the best quality that they could, ... without regard to "tradition". Otherwise, there would never have been any inovation within the Craft. So, ... speaking for myself, ... you bet I'm going to use an Arc Welder whenever, and wherever I think it will benefit the quality of the product. And then, ... when I'm satisfied with the quality of the work, ... I'll quite likely grind and hammer, and reheat, and rework the piece, ... until I'm also satisfied with it's appearance. If there are those who find fault with that approach, ... so be it. I'm very content with my "new" tradition. :D . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 This weld is fine for making pokers. It is also a very fundamental weld to much ornamental ironwork. Brian, if your personal experience with this weld has been one of failure, that is fine, nobody knows how to do everything. Explain the difficulty you are having, and one of the many knowledgable smiths on the forum will surely help you out. For starters, the kink you are so worried about can be avoided by using the methods I suggested, and indeed the method you yourself suggested, and by various other methods. However, I believe the accusation that this weld, in this application, is "wrong" is impotent. It is a very simple weld, often people's first, and there is nothing to really go wrong with it. Yes, there is an inherent problem of wastage and/or cold shuts, as with all fire welds, but with experience this problem is minimized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You can't even shape the hook part without having to put the base of the two pieces in the vice. Otherwise, it will kink where the pieces are reduced before the weld and/or spring the weld. Anybody with basic competence in smithing knows that, and would solve the problem. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the fire poker I posted a pic above was done fully on the horn and had no problems with the weld tearing. At least I don't ever remembering using the vice on that one. I wish I still had it to test the shearing strength of the weld, but I do know it was thrown around in several buckets against other steel for over a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Jim, I haven't stress tested it as it is the only poker I have made so far and is still subject to 'I know its beginner garbage, but im proud of it anyway' for the time being :P that said, I am reasonably certain that were I to pull it apart the very narrow section of weld just at the point of the V between the main shaft and the hook would likely split, but the hook itself would fail at the thin spot immediately after that. im not sure I would be able to split the main body of the weld, I went back over it at least 3 times at welding heat and tried to exercise a very thorough procedure, which thinned the hook, thus defeating the hopefully solid weld XD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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