brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Correct, Charles. I also agree that it has made many serviceable welds. I have made many welds that will hold up to stress also in several diffrent ways. Upsetting is one way. Whatever form of scarf you do, it must be adequate to make a truly sound weld that will hold up to stress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I think part of what Brian is trying to point out is that we are being taught bad habbits right from the begining. And I know that bad habbits are hard to break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I posted this in an other form on facebook. First let me say a good weld is a good weld and a bad weld is bad. I do not teach forge welding as a first project its a poor choice. Next I teach my students to make a fagot weld by folding the stock over 4 times. I cut a weld I did in half to show no inclusions. Students should be taught fire management first. This is a picture of a pair of compass dividers This is the same type of weld folding over and welding it back to it self Yes it can be done I know it is not a poker but it is the same weld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Hey folks! Long time no see!!! Here are the pictures! (fun note, the point on that puller was 0.2mm square. I have a hole in my thumb to prove it!) Testing the strength quenched, cold. Notice how the bend is stronger than parent bar. That is forging. (however, notice the hairline cold shut in the crotch created by hitting on the parent bar by mistake. Despite the bending, it did not progress further.) I had to try this after seeing Brian's postings to try it. It is an incredibly strong bend! There is no weld in this. I thought it was pretty cool! Super easy to do. If it was a fire poker it would be a 3 heat poker end. (Taper - bend, forge point from bend, shape puller.) I'd like to design some artwork using this technique. Here is Brian's original post - "A faggot weld and a much better idea" Faggot weld stress tested (broken) The alternative. Alternative stress tested. Brian is not saying that the weld is not adequate for a poker - it does the job. Right? It pokes and pulls logs. However, he is saying that the weld is not a 'good weld' and teaching this structurally weak weld to beginners is a bad idea as it leaves us beginners without the ability to maximise the capabilities of forging! Forging is a wonderful tool! Let's not waste it by learning how to do weak forgings. That is forgery? Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Alec - I don't see any forge welding in your example - just an acute angle version of a forged square corner.This does not really address the faggot weld issue. But - YES - it is a viable alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I see its not just me, I was wondering if I missed something in Alec post, considering the thread is about forge welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Jeremy, please have a re-read. I mentioned this was an 'alternative' and there was 'no weld'. *edit* woops, apparently i didn't read your post either ;) ;) Sorry about sounding hostile, it came across wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Do I understand correctly that the bent over tip is what is being touted as a substitute for a correctly executed weld? If so, that is just bizarre. It's not the same thing. It is just a bend that has been hammered on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironsmith Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks alec for posting the pictures! and a good translation of Brian's original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Yes it it. I view forging as one all encompassing subject. I also view forging as this wonderful way of taking something, moving it around, changing its cross section and retaining strength, if not gaining it! If the method of faggot welding a hook onto a poker is weak, though we agree it is adequate for it's purpose, then what if someone wanted a similar 'shape' for a task demanding a much higher payload? Well, that is what the forged bend is about. It is an exploration of structure, based on the faggot weld's use in fire pokers. Might I also mention that this is far quicker than faggot welding it and is a much more reliable, repeatable task that is arguably more aesthetically pleasing? Yes, it is 'just a bend that has been hammered on'. A faggot weld is equally something 'that has been hammered on'. Your disparaging rhetoric is not necessary and adds nothing to the discussion of forged structure. Of course, this is not a 'faggot weld' but, despite this, I believe it was worth posting as it shows an alternative for the example mentioned: a fire poker. It also acts as a suitable comparison between the structural integrity of forging like this and the faggot weld as commonly used. I hope this cleared my post up. This is fun! :) Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks , Alec! No one asked about alternatives. I posted this on another site from my I phone. I also posted another alternative on the same site, but I don't know how to transfer it to this site. There are more alternatives! Alec could you post the "blob weld"? I have more photos of the setup on my phone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Alec - I totally understand your postings.I posted early on in this thread, a picture that I drew quick as an example of what the area of discussion was on a faggot weld as to what Brian started this thread about. 85 replies later there is still not an example of how a "Sound Weld" is made as far as the type of scarfs involved or design of the weldment. Now I understand that Brian's pictures are in limbo at this time, so I'm just patiently waiting for them so it will clear up the long winded discussion, that could have been very clear with pictures from the start, Vs. a justified or unjustified slam at the "US Associations" that have not been mention for understandable reasons. - I just think that the topic could have started a bit more on the fully informative side Vs. cryptic.I fully respect Brian as a skilled blacksmith, as I've seen him in person multiple times and would do it again if the chance arises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 I tried to, Jeremy, a long time ago with my other postings with pictures and every time I get around other smiths. I'm not trying to "slam" the associations, I'm just trying to talk about it and help out a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Well, the hook in the photos is "an alternative", I guess! I'm a bit disappointed. I thought we were going to be looking at something a bit snappier than a bend, forged to a point. My disparagement is unfortunately non-rhetorical in this case. I will try and post photos, maybe a video of how to do this weld in the next few days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I understand Brian - like I said I'm just patiently waiting for some possible pictures to show the scarfing methods to make this type of weld sound - as when I started smithing this was one of the first welds I did and that/this topic is exactly what I thought as I finished the weld - thinking this is weak!!!. I believe it will help everyone that does not know this type of sound weld to be able to actually see the method to actually accomplish it Vs. the cut and fold over style of weld. Be it easier or harder than the fold and weld - it will be known how it's done for those that choose to facilitate that weldment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Don't forget to test it Dan P. Like I said, Jeremy K, I was shocked when I first saw this method being taught, and I guess it's being taught in the UK as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Don't forget to test it Dan P. Like I said, Jeremy K, I was shocked when I first saw this method being taught, and I guess it's being taught in the UK as well. It is one of the most basic welds in blacksmithing, Brian. Of course it is being taught, though I learned it as part of making composite scrolls, not fire pokers. I can ony re-iterate; If your attempts at this weld have met with failure in the past, I hope photos or video will help you in better understanding the fire welding process. To put to bed any further speculation on the structural strength of this weld, you will need to check the parameters of your liability with your insurer. I very much doubt either fire welding or forging of any type would be covered in the case of litigation (i.e. structural failure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Dan, awfully sorry it was not rhetoric! ;) :P Looking forward to your vid/pics! :) I hope you are coming to the IBF! It will be a lot of fun! Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Dan P, you obviously do not understand what I'm trying to communicate. It's not a contest, it's not an opinion, it's not a belief, it is just the fundamental laws of forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 There is a discussion about this on another site where I have posted pictures, but it has not developed to its entirety yet. I do have more pictures to share though. I just don't know how to share them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Dan P, you obviously do not understand what I'm trying to communicate. It's not a contest, it's not an opinion, it's not a belief, it is just the fundamental laws of forging. Nothing to understand, Brian. You need to get out more, meet some real smiths. Good for you for being self-taught, but there is a world wide community of smiths out there. You will meet some at the IBF. Paul Allen. Peter Crownshaw. These are two smiths who have forgotten more than either of us know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Brian, email me the images and I will place them into your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan, I look forward to meeting other smiths and learning and sharing knowledge! Dan P, let's see the video. Glen, I don't know how, but with the help of others we may be able to convey all this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trinculo Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Nothing to understand, Brian. You need to get out more, meet some real smiths. Dan, i don't know you but if you think Brian has not been exposed to any real smiths . . . . Well then perhaps it is you who need to get out more. I've seen quite a few people forge, but very few have the chops Mr Brazeal has with a hammer and an Anvil. I would love to take a look at some of your work but your website appears to be offline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 Where is the like button? I want to like that last post by trinculo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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