brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Chinobi, that is probably won of the better examples of that approach out there, by the way. Using round stock helps, and also working it on the horn. I glad you can see its limitations. Now, Dan P, I don't get you. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Can you read and comprehend what someone else is trying to communicate? I don't mean this to be insulting, more as a joke actually. I've got to meet you. I think we would hit it off just great. I do enjoy debate. I just don't think you understand what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I am with Dan I do not get it either. what are you on about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Basher, I'm trying to explain that without enough material to hammer to make a good weld, you cannot make a good weld, and the faggot weld as is being taught to "beginners" is confusing people as to what a proper forge weld it all about. You make knives, correct, and you have probably done faggot welds to make pattern welded steel. Knife makers weld the whole billet, but what would happen if you didn't, and only weld part of it then keep going on and on? I'm not saying you can't make a serviceable poker at all. I'm just saying it confuses a lot of people about one of the most basic principles on forge welding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 why do you think it confuses people ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Because it's too hit and miss, and they don't understand why. If it were taught with the knowledge of what is happening and why, that would be a good thing, but people actually think they welded pieces together, when all they did was tack them. Welders, knife makers and farriers understand this very well, but the blacksmith associations don't seem to be aware of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think I will leave this one between you and your association(s) , I see no problem with the technique when properly and appropriately used. I may be missing some contextual thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 This thread seriously needs a video or two explaining what is the problem and or possible better way to do this. I'm all about learning new techniques and then finding a way to cob it with other skills to find what works best for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Let's get together at the IBF, Basher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I made a poker like that. BTW my forge welding still needs work. My poker came out great. Except that weld! That weld got fixed by Mr Miller the MIG machine because I had no trust in it. For use as a poker this is a highly stressed weld with a natural "crack like" stress riser right where you don't want a stress riser. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think we have a "failure to communicate" here. The structural integrity of the material and the weld need only meet or exceed the demands of the application. Also, asking someone if he is "xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" is an insult no matter how many follow up statements try to modify the comment. I would expect to get slapped up the side of the head if I said that to someone. I don't think Brian is making his point and he should re-phrase it rather than just repeating it. "Slaps" in the form of formal warnings have been issued to the offending people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan P. Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Now, Dan P, I don't get you. xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Can you read and comprehend what someone else is trying to communicate? I don't mean this to be insulting, more as a joke actually. I've got to meet you. I think we would hit it off just great. I do enjoy debate. I just don't think you understand what I'm saying. I don't think we will hit it off, Brian, xxxxxxxxxxxxxx edit xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx With that said, I think I will leave the conclusion of this non-conversation to others who can make better sense of your fatwah against fire pokers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 The thread was taken off line so it could be read and re-read for content. Certain parts of the thread have been edited so it would conform to the site guidelines. No blacksmithing content was removed, Folks do not have to agree. They do need to keep on topic and present information in such a way that the others can learn both methods and then choose which is best for them in their shop. We need to treat others with respect. You may discuss the subject until you are blue in the face but please do not let it get personal. Make a video and SHOW US how your method is better. We can watch the video and actually SEE what you are trying to convey. Words can go a long way to describe something, but actually seeing it being done is much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 What I am getting from Brian is that this should not be taught as a weld method for anything that would need structural strength. It might would work for the poker, which shouldn't be subject to serious force. Please correct me if I am wrong Brian. Exactly, LastRonin, in fact I use this example a lot to explain forge welding and the need for more material to hammer to secure a weld before you get to the level of the other parts that you're joining together so you don't hammer them into each other and compromise their structure. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people making pokers this way. I do want to take some pictures or do a video on this subject, but my camera is in California with my wife. I'll be going there tomorrow and won't be back until the end of April. I have posted two of the methods that I mentioned earlier, but the pictures are gone. There are some elementary principles that are key to success. The need for enough material before reaching the point you should stop is just one. I also want to apologize for the insult. It won't happen again, and, by all means, slap me upside the head if it does. I'm sorry, Dan P. I do look forward to going to England to share what we can with each other in the short time we will have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I have no idea what caused the photos to disappear. I have ask the other admins to try to locate them. If some one has copies of the photos please post them or sent them directly to me and I will try to add them to the posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Thanks, Glen! I still have them myself. I just don't know how to work my wife's new computer, nor do I have the time to sort thru them and place them back where they were. I had never even taken pictures of my work before I got on IFI. Thank you for starting up this sight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Have your wife contact me. We can work together to place them where they belong. Do not feel bad, today it seems I lost my avatar and will have to put it back on the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 Are you trying to get me in trouble with my wife? She's barely better than me on a computer, and I'd have to sit there and do it with her:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Then email me the photos and where they go (URL) and I will put them there. Do not want you to get in trouble with your wife. (grin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironsmith Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 hey Brian, Thanks for bringing this up, i have never gave much thought about the joint it self thinning and becoming weak after the weld, though i noticed it, I also never gave consideration on what the implications were on understanding it as a new smith learning to weld. looking back i can see how this confused some of the reasons for scarfing and upsetting. it took me a good long time to get why you upset and scarf. because on the first fire poker i tried, i just folded and welded it up ;0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Iron smith, check out Facebook this morning. I put a picture on there to address this issue. I'll put some on here when Karen gets back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Yes. The first project we made at a class at Champlain Maritime Mus. in VT instructed by Peter Wells was a poker as described here. That was 6 yrs. ago and the poker replaced one at my fireplace and has been used MANY Times since and it holds together, no problem what so ever. It was the first day of three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironsmith Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks Brian, I hope you can get Alec's picture on this post, it would explain the point your getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Hi. I pretty much agree with Brian. I made a few of the loop and cut type pokers, without upsetting for the join point, and they look unsatisfying. I have also destructively tested a few and they are surprisingly strong. The welds are definitely not x-ray quality, since I have taken one apart, and it was pretty bad, maybe 30% inclusions. No matter, the joint will probably break at the wasted area just outside the weld anyway. One of my customers said that my poker worked fine in the fire, but he also used it to hook toolboxes out of his truck box. He said he was surprised it hasn't broken yet, since if the toolbox catches on something, he will yank until it comes out. This kind of abuse stretches the weak area, which is pretty strong in tension. Prying, bending or hammering the area will usually make it fail, but it does not normally happen in the field. As to whether this is a good idea for beginners, hmmm, I'm not really sure. I see the point. Colleagues tell me that good forging practice does not make money. Intentionally engineering in stress risers so that the product fails before its time makes money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianbrazealblacksmith Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Iron smith, I don't know how to link the pictures. If you can, put the one I put on and Alec's too if you want. You can definitely make a poker that will poke with that method. I hope we all can see that, but I've been trying to address the requirements of a true weld that can pass X-ray and stress tests so that people will understand how to solve these issues. evfreek, the loop weld will be stronger than the other method, just like the basket weld, because it doesn't have the free piece kicking off the other. It is contained. But, yes, it cannot pass tests either. And, yes, you can make a poker that will poke with that method also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your trying to say that this particular weld, in this particular application is a pore teaching tool. I think Dan and basher are seeing it from the point that for this application they can make a serviceable weld. I think that your approach to asking questions like this, certainly stimulates conversation, possibly bringing out information you yourself may not be privy to, but also stimulates your own thought processes. I have seen this weld, or a variation in which the bar was up set in the intended weld area, and then fagot welded. I haven't done so in this application, but have had some success with the uprights for camp fire irons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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