Would it be possible to construct a bicycle without using fossil fuels?

[Beery]

Hi folks,

 

First post here. Please bear in mind that I know nothing whatsoever about forging, so I apologise in advance if this question strikes anyone as incredibly ignorant or stupid.

 

I've had many discussions with cyclists and motorists about this, and there seems to be a consensus that you cannot possibly manufacture a bicycle without fossil fuels. I tend to think that the technology of forging using non-fossil fuels has a long history, and I reckon that maybe people are so used to the idea that fossil fuels are necessary that they've forgotten that people were making alloys long before the modern age of coal, oil and gas. So I figured I'd ask this of people who had intimate knowledge of forging.

 

I'm wondering how realistic it might be to manufacture a modern bicycle using only renewable fuels and techniques - i.e. charcoal-fired furnaces to make the steel, form the tubes and weld the frame. After the steel tubes are made and assembled, the rest is a piece of cake, but I'm just not sure about the forging. Can charcoal-fired furnaces reach the temperatures necessary and maintain those temperatures with enough consistency to make steel alloys that include chromium, molybdenum etc. and with very precise carbon contents? Can the steel be welded?

 

If not, how about simple mild steel or iron tubing? Other options to stick the tubes together? Any Possibilities?

[macbruce]

Hi folks,

 

If not, how about simple mild steel or iron tubing? Possible?

Sure It's possible but not practical, using these these materials the bike would weigh 30 lbs or more (iron tube is not available). Modern alloys are light and strong, with iron or mild steel you would have to increase mass or do lots of reinforcing to compensate .......

[Steve Sells]

they have been making steel that way for centuries, why not now? but many of the forming and welding need electricity to run the machines. Be careful when making  or using modern welding equipment, you may have to build your own solar collector for the electrical power, what many people dont think about is most the electricity generated in the states is from coal fired plants.  Water and Nukes are in the minority,

 

This also means that not all electrical cars are saving any fosil fuels, its just being turned into power and pollution in another location than  the rear of that car is all.

[Beery]

MacBruce, what exactly do you mean by not practical? Is the problem cost-related? Weight is not really an issue unless we're moving towards weights of over 100 lbs - a couple of my cheaper bikes weigh 30+ lbs and they work fine. I've ridden touring bikes that, fully loaded, weighed well over 70lbs, and I still achieved speeds of 20mph or more on them and with a granny gear I could get up quite steep hills. Only racing bikes need to be light and they no longer use metal frames. What I'm talking about is a modern commuter bike - just something you can ride to work or to a store to pick up groceries - that kind of thing.

 

Regarding Steve's issue of electricity generation, the question is purely one of whether it 'could' be done - not whether it's possible to do it now using today's electricity infrastructure. The question is based on the premise that oil, gas and coal may not be available at some future time. Electricity 'can' be generated using solar, wind and wave power, so I expect in a future when fossil fuels are no longer economical, there will have to be renewable alternatives in use.

 

As for the fact that so-called 'green' electric and hybrid vehicles are not really 'green', in that most of their electricity comes from coal, it's a good point that I think many environmentalists tend to miss.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

 

Could/Can means do you have the ability, physically or mentally. The answer is yes, someone does. Is it cost effective, no. The energy (physical and material) needed to produce a bicycle would  make the bicycle very expensive. If you are looking at it from a research and development point of view, you would have to absorb the R&D costs as life. Anytime you are changing thoughts from readily available tooling means that you would have to first make or develop  the equipment/machinery to manufacture in this fashion.

 

Some of the earliest motor-cycles were wood frame. I saw a steam motor-cycle at the Trevour Deeley Museum in Vancouver, that was built originally in the late 1800's in Germany. It had an oak frame, I can't remember if the wheels were wood or not, the rider sat above the steam engine in the hot seat.

 

If you are looking at it strictly from the point of view "Can I make a means of transport, in this fashion", the mind is the wall. If you don't build a box, you can't think outside the box. :) :)

 

If you are entertaining this thought just to create conversation, use your energy in a positive manner.

 

Neil

[SmoothBore]

Yes, of course, ... early bicycles were made of wood.

 

 

 

.

[ThomasPowers]

You could probably build a bike all out of bamboo and glue!

 

However acetylene was a hydroelectric product originally (CF Niagra Falls) and so all welding and forming could be done using it using commonly available welding equipment.  Note that Al was a hydroelectric product too, (cf TVA).

[Beery]

...If you are entertaining this thought just to create conversation, use your energy in a positive manner.

 

Neil

 

I thought I was.

[SimonW]

I know of at least two companies than make wooden bicycle frames, Renovo who make fames built up from various hardwood species & Monsoon which makes frames from sections of bamboo. Very cool bikes!

 

http://www.renovobikes.com/

 

http://www.monsooncycles.com/

 

Once you get past the frames, you would still need energy instensive metal parts; pedals, chains, sprockets etc. From what I understand alot of steel & aluminum foundries use electricity to melt down their materials rather than coal. Where they ultimately get their electricity is the question then and largely depends on where they are located. Hydroelectric would be then best, but there are still alot of coal power plants around.

 

On the plus side when the foundries creating steel 90% of the the starting material is recycled & the remaining 10% is newly mined. Aluminum is similar but I'm usure of the actual ratios of recycled to new materials. Titanium I have no idea about.

 

If i was more of a bicycler & had some extra money around I'd probably get one of those Renovo bikes, they are something else!

[Beery]

From what I understand alot of steel & aluminum foundries use electricity to melt down their materials rather than coal.

 

Thanks for the info. I had no idea that was the case.

[ThomasPowers]

our blacksmithing club toured a steel casting company---three phase arc furnace with 3 16"?  electrodes  ran in the middle of the night when the rates were cheaper and pulled 20-30 kiloamps as I recall.  The  fancier the alloy the more likely it's done electrically!

[ThorsHammer82]

I'm sorry, but I fail to see why any of the bike must be steel. you can build the frame, wheels, handbars, seat, pedals, and pedal arms from wood. where as a sprocket is the common thought for use on a bike, you could use pulleys which could be made from wood as well, and rope, as the chain. Knots evenly spaced and notches in the pulleys could act as the links in the chain and teeth of the sprocket. Will a bike made like this have a lot of longevity without constant maintenance? probably not. but it could be done.

 

someone makes fucntial bikes out of nothing but cardboard...

[Chinobi]

I guess everyone is just assuming that whatever tires that will be installed on the thing will be made from some organic plastic/rubber/science project?  otherwise the rubber for the tires and tube would be petroleum derived no?

 

what kind of finish is applied to the wood frames I wonder?  gotta be weatherproof, and hopefully deter termites! :)

 

bear in mind also that hydro power is not always as 'green' as it is chalked up to be, damming a river valley to produce enough hydraulic head to turn a generator floods the entire valley and can destroy whole ecosystems.  not trying to be 'sky is falling'-y but just because you use naturally occurring water flow to generate electricity does not mean it is 100% without impact.

 

food for thought :)

[DSW]

Rant time!   Green can be carried to so many extremes... I hate how people think electric cars are "clean" when most of our electric comes from coal in this country. Then there's all the environmental issues dealing with batteries and heavy metals... At some point anything electric based probably has some fossil fuels in the mix some where. If it's the composite structures in the wind turbine blades, the vast amount of energy needed to produce solar panels or even the vast amount of energy needed to create the cement needed for a hydro dam ( many places outside the US use waste tires to "burn" out cement.)

 

 

On a practical scale, even if you took a shovel and dug your own ore, cooked your own bloom, forged your own tube, forge welding tube clusters typical of modern bikes would be a XXXX. Most people have trouble welding up tube clusters with an arc welder of some sort, let alone trying to do a forge weld on one. You bike would probably end up weighing as much as a small car and I seriously doubt you'd enjoy the ride on solid tires. ( do you really want to try and make them from natural rubber without any fossil fuel involvement? Last time I checked rubber trees aren't exactly "local" to most people...)

 

Also your carbon footprint will probably be significantly higher burning wood for all the required stages. Wood fires aren't usually the most efficient way to convert matter to energy in a "clean" way.

 

I'd love to give all the extreme "green" lovers their greatest wish. I've love to pack them all up and let them live for a month on a small island with zero fossil fuel derived products and see how they enjoy their new life. No refrigeration. No synthetic fabrics. Let them wear rough spun pant fibers and leather/ wool/furs. ( most are vegans or anti fur so that will cut choices down even farther). No phone, no laptops, no cable, no electric lights... Most can't survive without a Starbucks coffee. let alone all their electronic gadgets..

[Timothy Miller]

At my local historical society they have a bike with a wood frame and forged hardware.  They called it a hobby horse.  If you want to forge it you will need to delve heavily into traditional methods. these skills take years to build.  Forget welding unless you mean forge welding. Think about rivets bolts pins and forge brazing as means of joining. It can be done because there are historical examples.   I would think about using recycled steel instead of making your own. 

 

http://amhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_264.html

[ThomasPowers]

Note the original post has no mention of it being "green"---just that no fossile fuels get used.

[DSW]

Note the original post has no mention of it being "green"---just that no fossile fuels get used.

 

 

I stand corrected then. I generally think of them interchangeably.

[njanvilman]

And remember that if you use rubber tires and tubes, they are made from oils and other "non-green" materials.  Unless you are going the "Fred Flintstone" route and use stone "wheels".

[Chinobi]

fair point, kind of an assumption on my end that the drive to avoid the use of fossil fuels would be at least in part motivated by an environmental concern, when it could be strictly based on there being a finite supply of such materials.  but you still have to ask where the energy comes from after fossil fuels have been exhausted, which then becomes very much an environmental issue.  plus he already broached the renewable aspect of it which is pretty contrived to try and separate from 'green'.

 

I was under the impression that from an air pollution standpoint (totally disregarding heavy metals, batteries, etc) the 'benefit' of the electric car would be that the huge fixed equipment burning fossil fuels have much larger and many times more efficient pollutant scrubbing equipment attached to their exhaust than your tiny vehicle can mount.  am I missing something there?

 

something I didn't realize til just re-reading the OP though.  he mentions fossil fuels as 'coal, oil, and gas'.  which got me thinking about natural gas, which can be harvested naturally and sustainably from manure and decomposition. I doubt it will ever be large scale enough to be a major percentage of power generation for any realistically sized society, but for the sake of exercise it could be used to power a forge to construct such a bike no?

 

so IMO, if you had unlimited time, materials and skill, yes it could be done.

[Rich Hale]

A few more thoughts: Any materials you use for this kind of item will have to somehow arrive at your place of build. Typically I go to a steel or lumber yard and they either use a fork lift or I load by hand..then I drive back home. If I need help unloading large items I call someone and they drive to my place and help. I use power tools as often as I can to process the materials into finished items. 

Work out some details on how you will make bearings or bushings for all the right places.And you may need some tools,,,to forge and heat treat them you can use charcoal, You can make that at home unless it creates a need for a diesel fire truck to visit...and hope you have enough lumber at your place,,,but then you could haul with horse or mule and a wagon. Be sure and buy them close enough to ride home. But then you can feed them if you have enough acreage to grow wot they need. One thing that allows yoiu to travel with such a heavy bike and do so at a nice speed is a proper gear set and tires that,at least in theory, absorb some of the road shock. I could go on for an hour I bet, but maybe it will give you somethings to consider.

[John McPherson]

First, how 'modern' do you want it? Cutting edge tech or mass produced big box store quality? A racer or a people mover?

 

The Wright Brothers were in the bicycle business by 1895. Sears sold bikes 100+ years ago that look very similar in design to a bargain store item today. They may have been torch brazed tubes and not arc welded, but the tubing could by made with wood charcoal fired steel instead of coal.

[VaughnT]

I think DSW nailed it with his 'rant'.  

 

The question isn't can you build a bike without using fossil fuels, but rather how far back in the chain you want the fossil fuels to disappear from the equation.

 

I can cut a 2x4 without burning fossil fuels by switching from a circular saw to a hand saw.  In that instance, fossil fuels are now one step removed from the equation.  But that hand saw had to be made somehow, and there were fossil fuels used to do it.

 

I have personally used stone tools to cut through wood, but I had to drive to a location that had naturally-occurring stone that could be knapped into a saw/hand ax.  If I lived somewhere that had a decent stone just lying around, that would be cool.  Most folks don't live near such an outcrop, though.

[jmccustomknives]

I happen to know these guys in greensborro alabama.  They make, and sell bike kits where the frames are made from bamboo.  Neat .  They are next door to they guy who I made a sign hanger for and the D-guard in my avatar. lol. 

  Might give you some ideas.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

In regards to electric vehicles, a LOT of advances have been made in just the last couple of years in regards to batteries, and charging. Look into what Tesla is doing, as well as Zero motorcycles. The zeros lithium ion battery is guaranteed for 2,500 full cycles,and still hold an 80% charge. At an average of 100 miles per charge that is 250,000 miles. Essentially a lifetime for the bike. My friend had one on loan, and absolutely loved it. 0-60 in 3.6 sec wasn't bad either. Plus no gas,oil,spark plugs,air filter,radiator,water,chain adjustments, trans fluid, plug wires, fuel system components, etc. Very simple, tons of torque, and inexpensive to operate, 52¢ to do a full charge that gave 70 freeway, or 130 in town miles. And yes, it is easier to control the pollution at the powerplant than millions of exhaust pipes, especially on poorly maintained, or modified vehicles. I am a gearhead From way back, but I see some huge advantages to electric vehicles.

Back to the original question, yes it can be done, but with a lot of difficulty.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I used to live in Arizona, there is a town west of Phoenix named Goodyear. This is important to this conversation because during two world wars they grew cotton to make tires for the military.
The second bit of the story is the fact that the US Marine corps seized rubber plantations to secure rubber for making said tires (and inner tubes) the assumption that tires have always been made from fossils fuels is false, as would be the assumption that you need petrochemicals to form composits, adhesives or even plastics.
So if we ran out of all fossils fuels tomarrow could you still manufacture a bicycle? Yes.
We all know that coal, patrolium and natural gas fueled out industrial and technological advances, but we have advanced to the point if we had to do with out we could. We can praduce electricity with out facile fuels, we can fuel transportation with out it, and can praduce plastics with out petroleum.
That said, despite the fact that Mother Nature spent billions of years sequestering carbon, and we have been buisely freeing it. Focile fuels are still relitivly inexpensive and efficient.