At the risk ......

[JimsShip]

But wasn't it your opinion that all that certification made you a better tradesman?
My Father was a sheet metal worker, who fabricated his own ductwork for his heating and air conditioning business. I worked with him since I was 12, but never took the certification tests because I hated working in attics and crawlspaces. Now a days most ductwork is fabricated and the tradesmen certified couldn't make half the stuff we did back then.
My Grandfather and Uncle owned a plumbing business next door, and I never certified there either but can install a bathroom with the best of them.
Certifications are just papers needed for insurance and decorations on the wall.
Do you really think that means more than experience or actual hands on work?
There are many ways to a goal, I think it's a bit pompous to assume yours is the best, and hilarious that you get defensive when asked to defend your position.

[Loneforge]

Does going to church make me a Christian......about as much as going into a garage makes me a car.....Here is an example of what an untrained smith can do. I've seen all kinds of licensed whatevers that are complete butchers at whatever they come in contact with. The idea that anyone would belittle someone based on licensing, credentials or regulation is absolutely ludicrous.
I know plenty of licensed machinists and welders alike that look at my work and scratch their heads. This is a dying craft.........It's the untrained wannabes that are keeping it alive. I'd like to leave you with an example of what I am capable of.....To learn from you or be self taught.......No Brainer.

[Dan P.]

My first post on this thread wasn't actually addressed to you, bigred, but to the readers of the thread as a whole. Before this thread became "about you", there were some valid and important points brought up by members on the topic of training, to which I like to think I added.

I was going to continue to answer my detractors here but its taking too much time and most of the stuff is either childish or misinformed out of the lazy habit of not reading the thread from the beginning. Notice again how many indentured 'smiths are on here putting the boot in :rolleyes: And to all of you who didn't have the nads to defend your craft I hope you lose the next job to a plater :angry:

Ignoring the nastiness of the above quote, your use of the word "plater" is interesting, and perhaps indicative of the differences between people's understanding of blacksmithing. In the world in which I learned smithing, a plater is someone who puts the shoes (or whatever the equivalent is these days) on race horses. To you it means, I presume, a sheet-metal worker? I think that shows why your opinion, coming from (I presume) a corporate, jobsworth industrial background, and my opinion, coming from a small, independent do-or-die blacksmith background, are quite different.

[GNJC]

I’m an amateur with no pretensions at all toward ‘professional’ status. I just work iron for my own pleasure and because it allows me to have things that would otherwise require a raid on a museum.

Apart from the evidence above, just this weekend I met a self-taught smith who does quite superb, in fact outstanding, Damascus / pattern-welded work (save your blushes Mick, it’s true).

So, with regard to qualifications I believe the question should be ‘more qualified to do what?’ In my own profession, law, I've regularly come across ‘qualified’ individuals I’d run a mile from rather than have represent me – and this is within a regulated and policed profession!

An individual’s having passed an exam / test reveals one of two things for certain: 1) An incompetent examiner or 2) That the examinee met the desired requirements on the day of the exam.; if you don’t think this latter point to be true, ask yourself when was the last time you drove your vehicle as carefully as during your driving test?

Without continued, randomly dated, testing it is nigh on impossible to make sure that an individual maintains his standards, let alone improves upon them. Such testing is expensive, time consuming and reserved for only a very few occupations; I write about the UK but guess it is the same elsewhere. So, we are back to survival of the fittest i.e. market forces which means that, generally, those who do good work will get more jobs. (Of course there will be exceptions, due to the dishonest and the gullible.)

I hope the craft will continue and prosper; however, be it for industry or ‘art’, as long as the skills are being used and passed on they can always be transferred to other purposes in the future.

I don’t know bigred by reputation or in person, but I think he has raised some (only some) interesting points; he has also raised some hackles and, sadly, I think that latterly this has been deliberate.

[iron woodrow]

the proof is in the pudding.
self taught is a very ambiguous term, as it implies no outside influences, and trade qualified? i am trade qualified, and am in awe of some of the smiths on this forum, yet i served my 4 year apprenticeship with a now "qualified" smith who is not fit to sharpen jackhammer bits......

[Farmweld]

Interesting how the discussion has split a bit. I don't give much consideration to Bigred or his personal opinion but I think the discussion he has kicked off could go far if not derailed by personality/ies.

I'm interested in the progression from apprentice to journeyman to tradesman to master. How is each step assessed?

I realise that the old system had all of the usual human political foibles involved but it would be nice to see a series of assesable tasks/projects assigned to each level that could be used as a definitive indicator of ones abilities.

Andrew

PS: this is speaking as someone who can fix aeroplanes if you want me too, I just don't have the licence to sign for it anymore. Do you trust me to keep you bum aeroplane in the air for the next 100 hours?

[Wayne]

I left school when I was sixteen and went into an engineering apprenticeship - training school then on the job with four years of night school and day release at college to get my city and guilds in engineering, technology and worksop practices.

Finaly came out with my papers as a lathe operator but also learned milling, fitting, heat treat etc. finally ended up working for Case at Doncaster running and programming cnc lathes and machining centers.

Started forging about 20 years ago, self taught reading books etc and finally finding sites like this for swapping info (which can be depressing at times when you see the workmanship and I wish I had half the talent as some of the folks on here) . A lot of the work I do for fun but I am lucky that over time people have seen what I make and have bought stuff from me, so now I have some of my work in britain, Europe and even a few bits in the States - no big bits just odds and sods here and there. Likewise if I have an enquiry that I think I cannot handle then I will pass the customer onto someone who I think could.

Now the question is while I have the city and guilds in engineering I have no formal qualifications in smithing, so does that make me a good or bad smith?
I am the first to admit that when I see some of my early work I wish I could buy it back and bury it. :(

There are time when I see these new regulation being touted around by the some of the bigger workshops I often wonder is it actually to improve the craft or just a way to restrict the market?
Or is that me just being cynical? B)

[Drewy]

Here in OZ we still have a formal trade paper which can be obtained from Ultimo (Sydney) TAFE collage, it takes three years to gain qualification as an Industrial Blacksmith, I always encourage everyone involved in blacksmithing to do the course and recieve formal training. This course over the years has been hanging on a knife edge of being axed, but thanks to all the blacksmithing related industries we fought to have reinstated and once again it is back in the course guides. Everyone who has done the course is always proud of their formal paper, holding it as a badge of honour. I guess we are fortunate down here to still have Blacksmithing reconized as a trade.

[bigred]

Don't presume Dan, you don't know me - No, a plater isn't as you describe but those, THE TONGUE IN CHEEK (you are tryin' to see what is not there,) riposte at the end of the post you refer to was aimed at, will get it B)

My position began as 'those who offer a commercial service should have the qualifications to provide that service to a min safe standard and to a min standard of quality of workmanship'. I say again, virtually every person who has read this post, had they to be commissioning a service from some business, would never chose an unqualified practitioner - if they knew the person quoting for the work had no formal qualifications.

Can't you see that it is the erosion of the necessity for qualified tradesmen that is leading to the lack of opportunities for those who come after us? (this particularly refs the UK as I now understand the US system of formally training craftsmen is in a worse decline than ours). If the trade is allowed to be fragmented and unqualified (rather than unskilled) 'work trained' (in the sense of being trained up for perhaps one particular skill of the trade, thus obviating the necessity to train an apprentice) people flood our markets, this decline will continue andf the formally trained artisan will disappear - all I am doing is defending the integrity of the trade I love.

Yes you are right I was trained as an industrial blacksmith but never a jobsworth - and now, for the last couple of years, no different to you (one man op),Think for a mo what you are all saying - that anyone whol likes can call themselves as they please - what then is the point of any formal training. just make up in your mind what you are and you're it :mellow: .

[Rich Hale]

I think you are repeadtedly missing the point here Red. Let me spell it out and try and 'splain it a bit: Wot is the point of formal training? Is there a system that works... how is it applied? By Whom? You have told us many times about you papers and credentials. you have danced away from the requests to show us some of your work. Many others in here have offered examples of their work for you to see for youir self wot can be done withouit formal training. I in no way mean that because anyone offers a fine example of there product it means they are to the level of a "master smith" And if youi think on that for a moment youi may also see that it certainly does not mean they are not that caliber of craftsman. The pictures they have show are to me like the papers you speak of: They indicate ability. But the proof is in the shop. In and ideal world for them to be employed with expectations of producing daily work up to the level of the example they submitted they would be asked to show shop skills in person. And back to the point I offered in the beginning of this blown out thread/ This site is populated with a lot of folks that do this as a hobby. They will enjoy wot they do at wotever level they do it. And that includes me. You have a different path in life. You will in no way affect wot I do and I feel you are not inclined to change anything in your work. Keep on typing,,I have other things for my time....

[01tundra]

Not directly related to blacksmithing, but as a professional licensed mechanical engineer with 16+ years of experience, I can tell you that I've worked with many designers who do not have any formal education in engineering and can design circles around many that have the qualifications on paper.

Certifications do not guarantee that one person is more capable than the other. Sure training and education are beneficial, sometimes vital, but it's no guarantee. I like to prove myself through my work, rather than waiving certificates and degrees in front of ones face. I also make it a point to never look down upon a person who isn't as educated as myself on paper, as many times I have something to learn from their personal experiences that I was never taught during my formal training. Some of the best design skills I've learned over the years have come from people who are not certified as engineers........just some food for thought.

[Dan P.]

Dan, you don't know me

No, I don't know you, but I do know that you keep very odd hours for a self-employed metal worker who claims to be located in Edinburgh.

[Steve Sells]

If this thread was not intended to kill off the hobby smith, and only relates to business then why didnt you post this in the business section of the forum and avoid all this debate? You challanged us. I did serve an informal apprenticeshop for 4 years as a general Smith, then 5 more under Bill Wyantt as a bladesmith. My electrical training is 4 years apparentice, then 4 more before I was allowed to take the Masters exam. My other certs have no bearing on my point to this post.

I do see a differance between my 2 crafts training periods, as a smith I came and went as I pleased, and was offered skill sets to learn. Where as Electrical I had time schedules with demands to meet. The electrical I sat before a board and had to sit many hours long exams. With the smithing I had a group of highly skilled men, after a time of watching me working, finally pronounced I learned the basics well enough to call myself Journeyman, and told Bill he should pay me for working with him now. Those remaining alive will back me up to anyone about my skills if asked.

I do value formal training, It provides more detail than I got in informal, and that is much better than self taught that can have many gaps. that as self taught they may not realize is missing.

I respect anyone what is willing to return to the fire and anvil to sweat and toil at this craft, at ANY level. Sadly I do not see you having any of the same respect to the rest of us, and I find your unwillingness to show your work extremly odd.

[JimsShip]

Here's a funny story that may help prove a point. :D

7 years ago i attended the wedding of a couple. (Please let's not drift into the ethics or opinions of that union, and move on...)
I spoke to the woman who performed the ceremony (a friend of mine) about her qualifications and she told me she was ordained by a non-denominational church in the mid-west.

Online.

So after having a heck of a time at the reception, I took my wife home and while she slept on the couch I looked at that site, and in a matter of 10 minutes I had myself ordained by them and was issued the title "Reverend", and awarded all the legal rights of the ministry to do perform marriages, give last rights, pretty much anything a seasoned preacher would be able to do. (except circumcisions, that's a medical legality, but really, who wants to do that anyway?)

I printed out the official certificate for my wall, and woke my wife to inform her of my new standings in society.
Now, I forgot about all that until this thread, and contacted the church and to my suprise, my name is still on the registry, and i'm still legal and official.
Technically, in the eyes of the law i'm a 7 year certified minister!
Does that mean i'm a better preacher than someone who spent their life training and studying in Catholic schools or a monastary? Surely my paper is just as valid as theirs?

Of course it doesn't. Papers are just that, a nice recognition from a paid establishment, whether it's a school or an aprenticeship.
A man could get the same level of knowledge by reading the Bible himself as he would had a monk showed him how to turn the page. (Perhaps he may even learn more his own way by interpeting what he's read without outside opinion)

Please don't get tied up with the religious comparison here.
I understand your point of wanting to maintain a standard of some sort, but in reality it would be the work of the individual that will make or break the opinion of his or her customer, and either sustain or sink them in their efforts.

DO NOT take this post to be anything other than a certification to hang on a wall.
Discussion of religion is not allowed on this site, so please do not go there.

[Glenn]

DO NOT take post # 100 to be anything other than a certification to hang on a wall.
Discussion of religion is not allowed on this site, so please do not go there.

[JimsShip]

It looks like you are post #100 Stew! :P

But I think he meant my post (# 98) and i didn't mean any offense.
I didn't know mentioning religion was not allowed, I thought it was just to be respected and not argued over.
Apologies. :unsure:

[ThomasPowers]

Having nearly lost my life to certified professionals *twice* I am a bit gun shy of people who wave a certificate but don't demonstrate expertise. (One was an installer who installed a 110 VAC dishwasher during our remodel on a live 220 VAC circuit; the other was an endodontist who after doing a very pricy root canal handed me a couple of pills and told me to take them when I quizzed him *twice* to get exactly what they were I found out they were something I was deadly allergic to---as was stamped on the Front of my file in large red letters!)

Smithing is such a broad field I would think it difficult to have one certification cover it all; as I tell folks: "my grandfather could point and set a plow for the soils in his area---well enough that he ended up with 960 acres (about 388.5 hectares) of land there. I can't do that. On the other hand I can forge and heat treat a pattern welded knife and He could not do that! Which one of us is the smith?"

I well remember the start of the ABS and their certification program; *many* folks that were masters of the craft were upset that the ABS "grabbed the rights" to call folks Master Smiths in Bladesmithing. Some of them refused to have anything to do with the ABS because of that. Many of the "new" bladesmiths don't know about this history and so their interpretation of the status of earlier ones may be a bit off.

I did an apprenticeship: I worked 6 days a week in the shop for no pay though I did get two meals a day with the family. Anything I made on spec was priced by the master and he took the shop's cut right off the top---my first blade he sold for the scrap rate of the metal...I only spent a year with him as I got married and had to support a family and so my smithing became a hobby. I have no certification and will just have to live with that. (I do have two college degrees though BS Geology and BS Computer and Information Science)

[Larry H]

I think I've figured it out ! ! ..." BIG RED " doesn't really exist, there is no evidence except a few irritating posts claiming superiority of a fictitious "master"....... BUT........It really got us all talking, didn't it ?...Ha.. Ha.. Ha.., on all of us, we were sucked in by a fallacy, the jokes on us ! Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha... Ha... Ha...Ha... Ha... Ha... Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha...Ha ...! ! !

[yesteryearforge]

OZ never did give nothing to the TIN MAN that he didn't allready have

[Drewy]

Mike lets hope the Tin Man had received formal training and had the right papers.

[JimsShip]

OZ never did give nothing to the TIN MAN that he didn't allready have

Awesome. Wish I said it!

For the record- The Great and Powerful Wizard didn't have any formal training either, so I guess it really is up to the recipients of your gifts to decide the value of your worth.

[Glenn]

Glenn will warn you off for talking politics....

You ARE correct. Let's not go there.

[Steve Sells]

Duplicate posts, one word posts, and spam get deleted. Members see what is left posted here, Staff see the same PLUS what was removed. so the post numbering staff see, may not be the same as what general membership sees, because our numbers incliude those removed from view..

[Clif]

This topic has gone down the garden path and round Will's mother's and I have lost the plot. I thought this started off about training and safety. Now as everyone else is interested in qualifications, as a smith I have none, grew up on a farm with a smiths shed at the bottom of the garden and an old welder in the barn, did what was need to keep things going. However I spent 25 years in the US military, have prefix of Master on several qualifications, enough paper to cover a large den wall. Not one of those ceritficates ment much to the other guys I worked with, what I produced and my reputation did tho. That experiance has taught me that BOTH formal training and HANDS ON with a more experianced and skilled person is need to produce high quality work in a short time. If you go just the school route, the 'Time served' element is missed. and for those of us that are self taught then we spend too much time learning by mistakes and learning bad habits.

I will not take sides here, I have seen some dangerous suggestions put forth (not so much on this web site, Glenn and others jump in on them, but youtube is scary sometimes). I have also learned a lot of good techniques. I would like to work with a smith occationaly to see how others do various tasks.

As for the certificates: Red I live in England and the goverment requirements for paperwork is a**inine and over the top and it still does not stop the cowboy builders. Trying to fix shoddy workmanship through regulation is an impossibility.

As I read through the replies I keep seeing the same theame: There are a lot of smiths out there that would like to' if not serve a full apprenticeship at least get the oppertunity to work with an experianced smith to learn more about the craft. Can you experienced smiths drop the bickering and possibly offer up to those of us that could use it.

I have to classifiy myself as a self taught/learner smith. This is due to not finding a smith or school close enough and willing to show me smithing. I have to keep the day job to pay the mortgage and HMIR. Smithing for me is an will be a hobby for a long time. I will not be competing with you proffesionals, so my stake in this is about the training. Rather than all the sniping, how about working up some sort of training help for wantaby smiths.


Red, you commented on the lack of safety. Could you do a thread on shop safety? I know there is some info on another site, but I don't remember any on the oxy/gas welding. and everyone could use safety refresher from time to time.

Red, Basher, Wayne, or anyother UK based smiths; you guys know anyone around the Cambridgeshire/Norfolk area that would share info? Wayne, I met you at Pensthorpe a coulple of years ago, I am working on a travel forge based off yours, thanks for the start on the research.

Glenn, sorry about the ramble

[MOONY]

hello to you mr BIG RED i am very happy you have made your comments i also see it your way , there are a lot of very good hobbist smith in here that have been self taught an they often make mistakes but most are trying ,an thats a good thing m i agree that formal trade training is the best way to learn blacksmithing
i have been in the blacksmithing game now from 1975 i did a formal trade as a industrial blacksmith at australia largest steel making plant
it was the greatest place to learn but i was luck
i also teach part time at a govenment college
here in australia we still have a few colleges that have blacksmithing trade and ornamental blacksmith
so if any of the ifi mwmwber want
they can come over to australia an attend our colleges