At the risk ......

[macbruce]

Hi McB,

Would you be quite happy that a self-taught operator hung a balcony that would hold the lives of your daughter or grandchildren? or would you prefer someone who had a good grasp of the mechanical dynamics of such a thing and what its load safety requirements would be - all of these parameters are not stipulated in code, so one has to rely on the knowledge skill and experience of whoever is doing the job.

Hi Ho Red,
The insurance and certification requirements are much stricter here on commercial structures as opposed to residencial. On the railing I previously mentioned with 9''- spaces the fabricator would not have been to blame if a child had fallen through, only if the weld(s) broke. Even certified welders make mistakes. I still believe that an individual should be able to get liability insurance w/o a sheepskin at least for residential apps.

Thanks big red I'll remember that when I get and o/a rig. Seems kinda silly that the safety board hasnt gotten its hand on that one and made it mandatory to have some kinda warning on the regulator.

[ZIG]

I agree, That the questions asked do get some adverse answers at times. But the good answers usually outweigh the cluttered, uneducated ones.
And I hope that most new people to the craft. Have actually read alot prior to asking their first question. I know I lurked and read alot for months it seemed, before ever posting any questions or Gave any advice

Although I am a union Boilermaker And served my apprenticeshipthat lasted a little over 5 yrs. Long story, should've been only 4 yrs.
Anyway, I'm a 3 rd generation Boilermaker and my grandaddy served 2 apprenticeships. 4 yrs of Boilermaker & 4 yrs of blacksmith apprenticeship also.
This was right after WWII. And he had his own shop. So I worked for him while I was laid off working as a Boilermaker. Because the union didn't offer the blacksmith apprenticeship anymore. But my grandaddy was 1 of 2 in the whole local. And his father and grandfather were the local blacksmiths in our county.
Anyway. As much training as I've had and the time spent working directly under a true blacksmith. I still after 28 yrs find it hard to explain the difference between.
I don't have any certificates saying I serve my apprenticeship as a blacksmith from the international union. Like I do on graduating as a Boilermaker. It just wasn't offered When I came thru the trade.
How I wish it was. Cause the day I received my diploma from the union. I rushed to show It to my grandaddy. Who was also my best friend too.
He said he was very proud of me. And oh how I wish I had been able To go thru a second apprentice program to have a diploma as blacksmith.

So the moral to my rant is : That even though I feel I'm as close and certified as I could get thru the programs from the union.
I still am amazed at how some folks that are self taught, on here. The things they figure out and the great work They post.
I feel I don't know Nothing.
so as a card carrying member of the Boilermakers, blacksmiths,ironship builders, forgers and helpers.
I enjoy the natural art some posses. And I understand the level That alot of advice is thrown around And the dangers that are present.
Because I work in heavy industry in my job. And I Hope that folks do look For courses to take and find the right people to assist Them. Cause after all I've done. I am still looking into courses to take just for this. For when I get time and able to. Even if I do it once I retire. I want to continue to learn and absorb all I can till I'm unable to do it. Anymore.

So to all the beginners to the advanced. Please continue and keep the spirit of the craft going. To take any classes you can. From metallurgy to design classes.
Because the craft must evolve to stay alive. Technology And techniques change. But learning to use What we have available to present day blacksmiths. Is a blessing and also more dangerous than ever. Due to the web.
Probably didn't make sense today with This post.
Yet, a true craftsman never stops searching for ways to advance his knowledge. And some Ain't that serious. They want to make a knife or sword. And They may stop or Never complete That even.
So anyone reading and taking advice from the web. Be aware. And be careful. Because we need to keep the craft alive. The more courses anyone takes. Is a great reason for them to be offered.
Like I stated before. My option thru my union was unavailable by the time I came thru. Due to being phased out in ways and lack of interest from the members too. No one wanted To be a apprentice again. A sad situation. But those That have it in them will find a way. Its Just harder nowdays. Especially in small towns.
Appreciate y'alls time. Just be safe And promote and advise smartly. Its not a game. We need This site and All That comes with It. A wealth of knowledge is within the ranks, here.
So as the OP wrote. We must all think as to Not lead someone into a dangerous situation. Cause we Never know who will take It incorrectly.
Hopefully the folks seeking answer can tell what is what on the feedback.

[bigred]

Red a coiuple of things here jump out at me: Have you seen any of the work of our "this side of the pond" smiths that did not have the training and certification program that you have in place? Ian fromm youir side has..have youi gotten his thoughts on our abilities?
And,,since you mentioned it. An elevated walk way in a hotel in Kansas City fell years ago and killed, if I remember correctly, 18 poeple. This was designed by trained folks and constructed to meet codes and requirements of the time. Which I relate to illustrate that at times standards and expectations do not meet needs in all cases. Yoiu have strict guidelines on farriers that require long hard work to prepare a person to work at thata crafct. Here anyone can sayh they are one and go to work. it does not take long for those to learn their shortocmings and seek the knowledge and abilitiies they need or folks will no longer hire them. And the flip side of that is that some folks that go to good schools and learn all they can in this area never really become wot they envisioned. The ABS was mentioned above. They indeed have an in place training and testing program that for some works and for somme it does not. I have seen blades by both back yard hobbiests and abs Mastersmiths, that it wouild take a panel of qualified,(who wouild that be?) Judges to try and see any difference in fit finish overal quality and perhaps even desireability. It is hard to paint a grouip with one color one brush and be correct.

Couple of things Rich, Check back this thread and you will see that I was happy to concede that some of the most talented peeps i have worked with have no formal training. Re your elevated walkway point - how many elevated walkways were put in by professionals last year and how many fell? If the same number were to have been installed by unqualified people how many do you think might fall? No trade, profession, or job is immune from mistakes and shoddy workmanship

I have no problem in conceding that there are probably more talented unqualified blacksmiths on this site than exist anywhere else on God's green Earth that, however, doesn't change my core point that unqualified people shouldn't be let loose on the public; surely the public have a right to expect that those who ply their trades have the necessary basic skills and knowledge to do a good, safe job?

[Larry H]

I'm sure I not only speak for myself when I say I would like to see some of your skilled workmanship. I think it will be a valuable
learning experience for us all. No need to divulge any "secret methods" just a few pics to show us what a formally trained blacksmith is capable of achieving. What say you ?

[r smith]

I was once told that when an "old" person talks you should pay attention.
I was also told that stupid knows no boundries- it is for life.
Just because someone has some sort of certification or training does not mean they are not stupid. Some jobs the training will outweigh the thinking aspect, and some jobs no amount of training will give common sense and basic smarts.

[basher]

I think training is important. I am an educator in my own craft of bladesmithing and have some formal training as a black smith.
However.....I do not think formal blacksmiths training really addresses any of the issues of installing large structural items . surly that is for a structural engineer not a smith or fab shop?
I must also disagree with your assessment of fabricated versus "real blacksmith" railings . I see no difference between well mad welded work and well forged work apart from an aesthetic one.
The aesthetic part is however no small part...
I have also seen welding from people with blacksmithing degrees that would make a decent fabricator cry or laugh. so surly what we are talking about is quality in work in general and not the old forged/ fabricated argument which for me falls flat, there is no high moral ground just good work and bad work........
I am interested in seeing the new scheme run through hereford college and BABA here in the uk . both organisations that have the future and welfare of smithing firmly in mind.
I tried to find an apprenticeship scheme earlier this year for someone and fell flat..... so where does the training come from?
It is all interesting, this is a get up and go craft, some people get up and go to college the majority get up and go on their own and I have seen amazing results from both kinds as well as xxxx poor ones. I had a years college to start me off .....the last 18 years have been spent in working and learning and what I have learned in my own work eclipses what I was initially taught.
in the end its all about educated common sense...some of the education I got formally a lot I learned (or made up) since , sites like this one (in particular) have added another wave of learning. You have to bring the common sense along yourself.

[nc_cooter]

bigred,
having first hand experience with your country's' trade unions in 1980 and 1981 while working under contract with the government over there, I can say that there is no guarantee of quality because of the system. Decisions are made by committee and if one person is not in attendance, nothing gets done. My work took me to your town as well as Lands End and Greenwich gas works. I am not saying that I didn't meet some well qualified people. It was the system that was the primary problem. The more the schedule slipped, the slower the decisions came. I am talking about basic engineering based on tried and true principles. I had a chance meeting with your then Prime Minister, Ms. Thacher and the conversation drifted to the job I was working. She was very familiar with the work and asked about the delays. I gave her a briefing and she promised to look into the problem. This happened on a Friday. The following Monday it was a whole new game. The decisions were made and the job was completed on time. She had called the Gas Works leaders to her office on Saturday for a detailed update.
No system is perfect. No amount of testing can guarantee perfection.
I am self taught in blacksmithing and knife making. I read books, joined this forum and others and practiced. I will never be a master smith of any kind.
Over here, under your system, blacksmithing wouldn't be a dieing art, it would be dead. We have freedoms that your country lost years ago. We are free to make mistakes. Yes there are consequences and I am willing to live with them. I stand accountable for all that I do. That is my basic work ethic.
Mike ( of the Middleton Clan )
PS: Six weeks after the job was completed and I was back home in the "colonies", I was offered a job as Director Of New Works by British Gas. My reply was "Thanks, but no thanks"

[Rich Hale]

About the average person not being able to do business with a person of less than qualified background. Would you agree that that couild also mean that the average person seeking metal work should not be allowed to do business with the big bog home improvement stores that sell shoody work from third world coiuntries.?
Some of the metal work I speak of would simply not be bought by low income families or those that just will nto part with money for important items. If the work was hand crafted by a hobbiest that takes care in his or her work, i will offer that it is most likely better than they will get from a store that shows little respect for the local craftsman. Whether a decorative wall sconce with electrical wiriing, or a so called security door to help prevent folks from entereing the security of a locked home. I would put my faith in a local hobbiest for some work thatg i would feel that is decorative and safe rather than some of wot I have seen offered for sale at prices that shouild not even cover the cost of materials...Red i just ask thqat youi open your mind a little bit and see that your enviornment is quite different than in other parts of the world. asnd that is ceertainly not to say in any way that your system or ours is better. But they are for sure different in many ways.

[macbruce]

As I said commercial and public projects are far more stringent here in the US so it's a whole different ball game......... Even though homeowners can pick literally anybody to do their bidding they are also free to check credentials,references, portfolios and websites if they want and it's up to them to make sure that insurance requirements are met, or not.
I'm sure if the insurance industry felt the need they would be more strict with things like ornamental iron but the only thing they've ever really seemed in a twist about is whether or not I welded on or fabricated trailer hitches and I told em no, at least not with a 110v mig.... :lol: ....Not really....
One thing I'm sure all us Yank business owners will likely agree on is we don't need more Government regs here, the system works for better or worse.....

[territorialmillworks]

Congradulations on being well qualified on your side of the pond, you've worked hard for that and I respect you for it.....please be mindfull that in the 1970's, 'unschooled smiths' in the US were responsible in large part for the renaissance of blacksmithing as an art and trade. I,for one, am glad to have the freedom to do what I want, when I want, how I want. I prefer to set my standards rather than that of a cast system. If a customer likes it, they buy, if not, they won't. History serves proof of that founding freedom of thought and action in 1775, 1914, and again 1939. That's said, welcome to Iforge.

Keith

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Bigred, a little belated maybe but there it is.

This side of the pond if a forged part needs certified people making it then certified people are. The hand forged product is mostly a commodity market for the artist smith and there isn't a certification process I'm aware of. Where there is a market for certified hand forged products I'm sure there are regulating bodies. Sure they may be artificial bodies but if lives don't count on the product . . .

Sure we get some real zingers for opinions in every aspect covered here but the dangerous ones usually get shot to bits pretty quickly. Heck even technical aspects of general forging with little added hazard often generate a shooting gallery feel pretty quickly.

Yeah, I'm self taught, been pursuing the craft since I was less then 10, told the basic story enough so I won't go into it again. I did grow up in a dangerous shop environment, Dad was a metal spinner and I was spinning by 10. Basic spinning, not the advanced work, I was running the circle shear, punch press, trimming, sizing, rolling beads, etc. though.

I have a pretty complete smithy of my own and teach. I only have a few rules. Safety First and let me tell you I'm a BEAR on safety. No tool abuse. PERIOD. Learn the trade? This side of the pond? What trade. Blacksmithing isn't much of a trade here so there really isn't an apprentiseship program available, not a real one that is. Sure there are guys offering "Apprentiseships but what the hey, I can offer an astronaut training program if I want. What few there are this side of the pond are few and far between.

You make important points though such as architectural and engineering. In most cases building codes require inspection and that alone weeds out most substandard products, installations or applications. Nothing's perfect of course, the backlog of court cases here is evidence for that.

I'm not saying you're wrong . . . Well more than normal that is. I just don't know how well your observations/opinions apply here. Good thing IFI is such an international forum eh?

Frosty the Lucky.

[bigred]

I'm sure I not only speak for myself when I say I would like to see some of your skilled workmanship. I think it will be a valuable
learning experience for us all. No need to divulge any "secret methods" just a few pics to show us what a formally trained blacksmith is capable of achieving. What say you ?

Hey Larry,

Try that man-trap on someone stupid enough to fall into it :P

When and if I post it will be at my own behest at not at that of someone obviously looking to make more of things than they are.

Calm down dear - as we say ;)

Mod Note: LarryH has a vaild point on asking to see your product. We have seen nothing of your work, most of the others posting here have shown their work.

[Larry H]

Make more of things than they are ? so far there is nothing......... sweetie

[bigred]

Hi Bash,

I find it hard to disagree with one of the 'Scrapheap' Team :D Massive, massive fan of the show - it was always an ambition to have a pop but could never get up the front.

Great work man :D

Make more of things than they are ? so far there is nothing......... sweetie

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

[bigred]

Hi Coot,

I was not in the UK for most of the 80's so I will just have to take your word for what it was like but it isn't a place I recognise

McB
I hear you mac - just a different culture I suppose - I would like to see more regs and find it hard to understand how that can be a bad thing. No doubt my view might be different if I had been born in detroit ;)

Congradulations on being well qualified on your side of the pond, you've worked hard for that and I respect you for it.....please be mindfull that in the 1970's, 'unschooled smiths' in the US were responsible in large part for the renaissance of blacksmithing as an art and trade. I,for one, am glad to have the freedom to do what I want, when I want, how I want. I prefer to set my standards rather than that of a cast system. If a customer likes it, they buy, if not, they won't. History serves proof of that founding freedom of thought and action in 1775, 1914, and again 1939. That's said, welcome to Iforge.

Keith

Hi Keith,

Don't you mean 1917 and 1941 :rolleyes:

[Theintegrator]

My first post. I am so new to the field/trade/hobby that I am still tickled pink at the anvil I just bought from a junk yard dealer in Idaho even though I fear it may be one of those dreaded ASOs. (Sure looks used though; even has flecks of horse manure around the base.) But I digress...

I am newly retired and want to get my hands dirty, calloused and probably even singed. I will start up on my own and will read, lurk, and ask questions here and elsewhere as I go. I cannot see my way clear to spending too much of my "sunset" years going back to formal training, and certainly not apprenticing. I know that's the "best" way to become really good, by sitting at the feet of a master. But I also feel I will be able to teach myself what I need to know in order to achieve what I want to do. Of course, the more proficient I get, the more I know I will want to do, and the more I will have to learn.

I don't plan on setting up shop as a commercial smith. I am an accomplished woodworker (a serious hobbyist for the past 35 years) and I want to incorporate metal into my furniture projects. So I imagine I will learn what I need to to do that.

Oh, and I have also decided I want to carve granite. Metal, stone and wood. I don't have time left to become a master of each. So I will settle for becoming proficient enough at each to keep me going on.

Now that I finally have the free time I reflect on the past, and sorta wish sometimes that I woulda taken a left turn rather than right turn I did, and found a sensei I could learn from. But I never reflect on that for very long. I am what I am where I am, and now it's forward ho!

Red, I think you should lurk a while here and get a feel for the knowledge these folks bring to the table. If they don't exactly conform to your experience and preference for doing things, I'm still willing to bet you'll pick something up that'll make it worth your while.

BTW, I'm an English major. That's by way for excusing this long, wandering and slightly off-topic post.

[bigred]

Frosty, Hi,

I completely agree, I sort of alluded to it early on in the thread when it kind of dawned on me that I was looking at this upside down. This is a place of artists, Hobbyists and enthusiasts with a few pro's (none of whom are here putting the boot in you might notice ;) )- not the other way round.

[Larry H]

Perhaps we've gotten off on the wrong foot, regardless of the fact I tend to defend American blacksmiths, you have a point about the lack of apprentice training. I've been a union blacksmith for 28 years and have seen the worst and the best. Yes, there are a lot of "armchair smiths", who can do a few things but can look up and post responses which are not always accurate. Dying with your secrets is never good, after all, and being so full of yourself that you think you are the first to come up with a new thing after 3000 years of other smiths doing the same, is ludicrous. I've seen Master Smiths over the years do some pretty amazing things with just a hammer and anvil, transfer the force of a hammer blow laterally 12 to 18", who ever heard of that ? I've held a chisel for a smith with a round house swing with a sledge that NEVER missed in 18 years of working with him. Even lacking a "formal training program" a person can get to the Journeyman level if he has a natural ability and go up from there. Who trained the first blacksmith ?

[yesteryearforge]

A few observations
I changed my mind :rolleyes:

Dont ask me how I really feel :)

[territorialmillworks]

Agreed upon conventions put the dates as follows:

WW1 July 28, 1914 to Nov 11, 1918
WW2 Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 25 1945

[tzonoqua]

Hi Big Red, welcome to the forum. I once lived up in Highland Perthshire, I miss the wilds!

Have you been involved at all with the consultations regarding National Occupational Standards? There were meetings earlier in the year I don't know if the consultations have finished but you may want to put forward your views there if you haven't already, you certainly aren't alone in your views.

http://baba.org.uk/_gfx/NOS_II.pdf

I am on the fence on this one. I did a fine art degree, metals specific, and via that route I discovered blacksmithing. So, I have training, I can go through research and explore the design process, I can create original work, but it's not the kind of training that would certify one to go out and put up ballustrades. There are gaps in my knowledge as my degree wasn't set out to train me up as a blacksmith, but I know graduates from Hereford have gaps in their knowledge too. I have discovered that in this field there are some really lovely and very skilled people who are generous with their knowledge, so I know if I have a job that I'm not sure about or there is a technique I need help with, I have a few Blacksmiths I can call up and they will help me sort my problem out or give me the advice that I require. So, for me most of my learning about Blacksmithing has been by putting in self directed time at the anvil, with occasional input. In hindsight I would have loved to do an apprenticeship from day dot and learned everything thoroughly, but life happens, and hindsight is 20/20. And like someone has said earlier, I'm too old now to start from the beginning!!

I had some quite interesting discussions on this very subject yesterday at a meeting of the Blacksmiths Guild. Everyone agrees that the traditional skills should be preserved, how this should happen is debatable.

[Dan P.]

I haven't read all the posts, but I feel okay offering my opinions anyway;

First off, I would like to inform our colleagues in the US that there is no blacksmith guild system here in the UK, and outside of, I think, London and Edinburgh, there never has been. The guild system, in its true manifestation, was little more than a racket, simple as that.

Secondly, pertaining to the NOS in the UK, if blacksmithing is your business, like any other business, you sink or swim. Unless you make the ridiculous proposition that all ironwork be made by "certified" blacksmiths, outside of specific heritage work, you will be competing with the cut-and-tack boys anyway. If you want to do anything, regulate who calls themselves fabricators first, and you would wipe out a vast swathe of competition in an instant. Of course, we would have to have the necessary qualifications ourselves which, ahem, not all of us do...

Third, having a few "safe use of machines" industrial certifications myself, I can tell you that, with very few exceptions (such as the oily-rag-on-the-oxy bottle thing), they are qualifications which for which you need either a) very basic common sense or b. the ability to remember the criteria needed for passing the test. So I don't think they should be held up as a defence against things going wrong and people getting hurt.

[tzonoqua]

Hi Dan, I totally agree with your statement, If blacksmithing is your business, like any other business, you sink or swim. Doing shoddy work is a quick way to make your business unsuccessful, and to some extent it regulates itself in that manner.

[nonjic]

Ive met some apprenticed 'time served' machine operators (turners, millers etc) and I am uncomfrotable standing near a machine they are running because they are not safe, and it winds me up seeing a machine tool being tortured with the wrong speeds and feeds!

Ive met blacksmiths that have spent several years studying the craft, and I would rather have your average 'stick and weld' arrow heads outside my house than their work.

Its all about the competence of the individual. I think its complete bobbins to suggest that someone who is formally trained is going to ultimatly be a better craftsperson than someone self taught. (though if you have 2 people with the same competency, and formally trained one they would get 'there' quicker than the self taught person.)

I studied business and finance to degree level. Does not make me a better business man than somone self taught :D

to quote you bigred, I 'play at' machine operating. Made these 6' dia clutch plates this month from flame cut plates. Turned, drilled, and gearcut on a slotter, they drive (dead fit) on 52 teeth on one side, and have 0.006" clearance on the other side. Never been trained to use a machine. Did them in half the time a subby specalist takes..... just playing though...





I have 'a play' at blacksmithing too... (self taught, just playing)



Pretty insulting to suggest that formal training makes you better, and us self taught guys are just incompetent, unsafe messerabouters.

[r smith]

nice work john - for someone who doesn't know what they are doing :D Always happy when you post these kind of pics