Farmweld Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 In my case the fab shop, which involves a lot of "cut and tack" of components, pays the bills. Yes a lot of people won't be able to afford the price of a fully hand made wrought iron piece, but the will pay extra for something that looks different to a farm gate. The money I make goes back to buying more tools and improving my workshop. I won't take on any structural work because a) I don't have a structural welding ticket, B) I don't have a builders licence to install it. I have done some jobs that weren't structural from engineers drawings and most of the stuff I make is overbuilt out of habit. As far as my blacksmithing skills go I guess I'm at journeyman stage, some of the stuff on here tells me I have a lot to learn yet. Amongst my local group I am considered one of the more experienced smiths. I am presently trying to set up a training schedule for the local group and have been researching widely for training notes or course guidelines to do with blacksmithing courses so if anyone has some, or a URL, I would be grateful for any assistance. I wonder whether it would be possible to set up a curriculum that is recognised world wide for teaching the basic skills involved in blacksmithing and then a set of testing criteria for demonstrating competence in those basic skills. I think the ABANA "controlled hand forging" series of lessons are good but are thee any other things that should be added? Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hi to you too Dan First off I never at any point mentioned any guild - perhaps if you took the trouble to read what i had written you might have saved yourself at least making this point :o given I never mentioned the Guild then whether it was a racket or not is moot :P I agree entirely with your second point i.e. it is high time we regulated the trade, that way you are getting at least some guarantee of quality - I have absolutely no problem in competing on a level playing field. I find it very strange that, in virtually any other area of our collective lives we will always spend our money on the best quality we can afford ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. As consummers I would bet my shirt that each of us, being honest, would always choose the qualified man over the self-taught man GIVEN THE CHOICE. So If my views are too extreme then I would suggest that a compromise position would be that the prospective customer should always be in an position where their choice is informed. Most customers take as given that anyone offering a service is fit to do so - they would be surprised and I bet shocked at who is able to call themselves by whatever trade appellation they like. However good the ubqualified spark is you are NOT going to let him connect up your cooker. To argue as you have is to have no quality barrier to anyone who wants to do anything - even if in their lack of knowledge they could end up hurting someone?? Isn't it a case here of shooting the messenger? Those who have no basic training arguing against its need? You are havin' a laf mate :blink: As to qualifications and training, in England I don't have current knowledge (it is another country after all :) ) In the sixties and early seventies when I served my time, the college courses were either the old EITB fabrication welding and blacksmithing or the City and guilds of London Institute (of which I am a proud Life-time Licentiate)214/1 and 215/2 Fabrication and welding Engineering route. The practical work in the trade being work and employment based and completed by continuing assessment under one or two journeymen. At the end of which proces one was awarded the Certicicate of competency from the awarding trade body (EITB in my case) and of course your trade "lines" from your employer, giving a general o0verview of the type of work and in which trade you trained. The college based work was completed over 4 years and an optional 5th college year for a "Full Tech" or full technical certificate in fabrication engineering and.....yep you guessed it... :P And 3rd - if you think that a few rules to safely use machines and common sense are all that is needed then you aren't fit to be in the trade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Terri Tried to work out the multi post but I'm too highly trained for it so ;) American entry to WWI - 1917. WWII -1941 - check it out man :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Ditto the multipost thing AV - Perth is a beautiful part of Scotland - but then most of Scotland outside of the central belt has something to recommend it ^_^ I would suggest there is quite a diffence between us - you are an artist and I am a jobbing smith and sometime fabricator, I would suggest, from what you say, that you have the necessary training to do what you were trained for - artistic expression. I don't think I will be running into you any time soon quoting for a couple of hundred yards of Ind fencing :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 I've always gone about it as shoot first then ask questions, it's worked so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Hi Coot, I was not in the UK for most of the 80's so I will just have to take your word for what it was like but it isn't a place I recognise McB I hear you mac - just a different culture I suppose - I would like to see more regs and find it hard to understand how that can be a bad thing. Hey Red, I gather your ox wouldn't be gored if new ''regs'' came to pass..... :P ......I'm 64 and have done many architectural elements on mostly houses. I suppose if the new regs were handed down from the Gestapo I'd have to drop everything and jump through my butt to appease the new order to go back to work 'or else' as would many of my Bros and Sisters. Everything I've ever built passed an inspection by a qualified....and always charming inspector or it got brought up to snuff. Simple, It works.I say let the buyer beware and employers, check out a prospective employee thoroughly including welding certificates when applicable. Look at all the lousy drivers out there with licences, yet they are qualified.......... :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 I was going to continue to answer my detractors here but its taking too much time and most of the stuff is either childish or misinformed out of the lazy habit of not reading the thread from the beginning. Notice again how many indentured 'smiths are on here putting the boot in :rolleyes: And to all of you who didn't have the nads to defend your craft I hope you lose the next job to a plater :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 What is there to defend? All you can do is your best work. I would like to put my boot up something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hi McB, I would guess that if you and I were just regular peeps thinking about having work done we wouldn't expect to have to check on the qualifications of the person offering the service - if we were to check the bona fides of evey single service provider we used in life we wouldn't have the time to do anything else. Problem here is we aren't just regular peeps and perhaps have an emotional interest in this which blinds us to the truth of what we would do if this were any other service we were talkin' 'bout but 'smithin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 What is there to defend? All you can do is your best work. I would like to put my boot up something... :P :P :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Gotta love this guy Bigred........he is actually more controversial than ME! Its about time, Thanks RED :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc_cooter Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 red, I hope you get all the regulations that you want and maybe a few extra for good measure. Even controlling the type of paper you wipe with. In the future, as that island sinks under the weight of those regulations, maybe you will remember the good old days. PS: I didn't know you had nads over there. Maybe they should be regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Awe Shux Stew You as well :( ? an you a blacksmith to :(- Talk 'bout Turkeys and Xmas :lol: but I suppose it takes the heat off you - I've seen some of the vitriole poured on your head for much the same temerity - an' here you are using your bladesmith skills to ease in the knife :( :( :( :( :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Hey coot - you need to stay out of the sun my friend :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nc_cooter Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 red, at least we have sun over here and not a dim glow a few days a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 so why does his avatar look like a Troll?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Big Red 1.....................25,144 members 0 You win Pal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Keep the topic civil as the site guide lines apply to the entire site. If in doubt the short version is no fussing, no cussing, and no personal attacks, stay away from discussing religion and politics. Many times when a topic generates a heated discussion, we ask you to provide references to back up your opinion. Bigred, you have been requested to attach images of your work. Now might be a good time to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcc Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 After reading the whole thread, I have come to a conclusion that I will still pick up my hammer tomorrow and forge something as I have thus planned. Weather and God permitting however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Bigred2..............................25143 members 0...............Agreeing with him just to be my contrarian self! You might have changed the point........ ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Ok, here's my 1 cent. I'm pretty new at all this, but I love all of it so far. I've taken a few weekend classes to get me started, built a forge from scratch with what I could learn here and there, and scrape together any scrap I can bang on to make what I can for my own pleasure. (For the most part, I usually just make hooks, nails, a few candle holders and a lot of ash!) I am not wealthy or lucky enough to have any sort of professional training, or travel the world as you boasted, but that does not make me a lesser smith or student. In my opinion it doesn't matter if you obtain knowledge though the hallowed halls of some university or from the hard lessons of everyday experience, it's the drive and determination of the individual that matters. My hammer hits the anvil just as hard as your does, and although it may take me a bit of trial and error, or a few hours of reading and research to aquire the tips and lessons served to you on your silver platter, I will ultimately equal and maybe someday even surpass your skill level. Be careful riding the high horse, the air can be thin up there, and the fall off the saddle is a long way down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Jonathan Swift would have a field day in here, my new target er friend! Bigred, you have posted on this forum 31 times and counting..................and yet you know me well? Interressante, as the French would say! :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: oh please Stew no - y're not going to pick on me are you - what will I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Keep the topic civil as the site guide lines apply to the entire site. If in doubt the short version is no fussing, no cussing, and no personal attacks, stay away from discussing religion and politics. Many times when a topic generates a heated discussion, we ask you to provide references to back up your opinion. Bigred, you have been requested to attach images of your work. Now might be a good time to do just that. The topic is about being qualified and i would be more than happy to post my qualifications on this site if you were happy to do likewise? I have been the one maintaining civility here in the face of much trolling but you decide to wade in on the side of the unhappy mob? For a simple assertion that those who work in the public domain should have the formal training to competently do so? And please direct me to the other requests you have made of members to get 'em out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimsShip Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 I don't think Glenn was taking sides, that was for everyone's sake to keep the conversation on topic, and not drift into your choice of avatar, or whatever. You started this by saying your training made you more qualified, and others who have not had that advantage posted items for review to show their skills. (Amazing work by the way!) I don't think asking you to do the same is trying to get rid of you. (If you were local we'd invite you for a few beers, stoke the fire and see what we could hammer out!) Should we have a contest? Lets pick something to forge, and see what everyone does with it. (Stewart does something like this in another thread.) I personally would falter at the task, but i'd love to see what everyone else submits. Street smarts over Grad know how..... :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigred Posted October 1, 2012 Author Share Posted October 1, 2012 Ok here it is - I served my apprenticeship at Cameron Iron Works in Livingston in their forged products division from 1972 -1977. I have apprenticeship papers from the company and I have a full Technical Certificate in fabrication engineering (The Old HND Cert). I am quite happy to post these qualifications on this site in a checkable format, if those who have a need to see them do likewise. However to instruct me to ante up to satisfy the hungry mob is unjustified, biased and I, much like most of you, had the tables to be turned - have no immediate intention of doing so. I will add though that, I have nothing to fear re my work and I have little doubt that in the course of interacting on this site, I will be posting examples of what I do and perhaps pix to exemplify points of view which I might contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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