At the risk ......

[John B]

Hi Clif, have a look here http://blacksmithscompany.org.uk/WWP/AwardHolders.shtml and check out anyone near to you there are some on the list who satisfy your requirements.

And they are all Qualified by Big Reds standards.

[Dillon Sculpture]

Well said Cliff, I hope to encourage local smiths to pursue thier endeavors in iron through person interaction. No doubt BIgRed is going to get a wallop, most here want to share what and how they know, I found IFI because I wanted to know, please carry on...

[John B]

As for the certificates: Red I live in England and the goverment requirements for paperwork is a**inine and over the top and it still does not stop the cowboy builders. Trying to fix shoddy workmanship through regulation is an impossibility.

As I read through the replies I keep seeing the same theame: There are a lot of smiths out there that would like to' if not serve a full apprenticeship at least get the oppertunity to work with an experianced smith to learn more about the craft. Can you experienced smiths drop the bickering and possibly offer up to those of us that could use it.

I have to classifiy myself as a self taught/learner smith. Rather than all the sniping, how about working up some sort of training help for wantaby smiths.

I had managed to restrain myself so far on this one, but have finally got drawn in , Thanks Clif !

Whilst basically agreeing with Bigred on the qualifications required basis, and training here in the UK, he really ought to take a reality check, and move with the times.

He (and I) were fortunate to go through a formal apprenticeship system, and by his own statement he qualified as an industrial blacksmith, so, my question (at the risk of...) does that qualification cover him as qualified in repoussee, ornamental smithing, armoury, blade making and other allied smithing crafts?

Myself having come from an engineering background including forging and foundry work and with the same but slightly earlier qualifications as bigred, when I opted out of the company system and started on my dedicated blackmithing journey, I found the industrial forging and foundry experience helped, but like many on this site, I wanted to digress into other fields and to pay my own way. This was some 30+ years ago.

The biggest problem I found was trying to obtain information from other "qualified " smiths" Why? Job Protection purely and simply, anyone with smithing knopwledge appeared a threat to them and their income, and the only training they were going to give would be to family members or friends, they did not seem to care if the skills they had went with them to the grave,

Apprenticeships to blacksmithing started to decline after the second world war, and were further exacerbated by political circumstances, so how do we cope with that?

Fortunately at that time (pre motorways) we had CoSiRA, and they had two travelling trainers, Frank Day, and "Tommy" Tucker and a series of books, and they proved to be the salvation of the blacksmithing community, as they would travel to individual smiths to train them in their own forges. It was these books that were invaluable to me as I tried to learn "the traditional ironwork skills". (I am still learning)

In the late 1950's CoSiRA (Council for Small Industries in Rural Area) decided to help promote blacksmithg for the West Country Blacksmiths and set up a show gallery at the Builder's Centre in London where some 18 'smiths put their wares on display,

The result of this event was that an order was received for 8 pairs of gate for the Cemetery in Virginia Falls, Washington.

This was taken on as a project amongst the 'smiths, all who had varying skill degrees, and to ensure the quality and skills were available, Frank Day was appointed to oversee the project,

Frank then formed the Guild of Wrought Ironwork Craftsmen Of Wessex, a non profit making organisation, (now more commonly known as Blacksmiths Guild UK) becoming its first Master (later he was awarded the first Licentiate from the WCB)

(As an historical note, Tommy Tucker went on to assist in forming BABA in the late 1970's)

Because it was impractical to travel to all the widespread forges, to ensure the smiths had the knowledge and tools to do the job, training was done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday at Cannington College so that the 'smiths had minimum Off the Job time.

They would then go back and continue to practice and produce the gates which were finished on time to budget and deliverd to Virginia Falls.

So the Guild has two purposes in its constitution,

1. 
   To foster commercial participation in the Craft.
2. 
   To provide expert tuition to foster and maintain a high standard of design and craftsmanship.
   

Membership of the Guild is open to Craftsmen and others engaged in design and practice of the Craft, but our courses are open to everyone who is interested in the craft.

As to qualifications, the best qualification the student receives is the work they have produced which is there for all to see and criticise/admire, not a piece of paper saying they have attended a course, not that they learnt anything, they attended.

As for credence, Paul Allen, Bob Hobbs and many other now prominent and well known Including BABA mebers attended many of our courses whilst others have gone on to be UK Champion Blacksmiths.

Due to our members efforts we now have a training forge facility where we can continue our efforts.

I would like to add that for many years whilst learning my new chosen career, due to my respect for other 'smiths, I personally found it very difficult to say to others "I am a blacksmith", and the older I get the less I know, but I think I now know enough to be able to proudly say "I am a Blacksmith" not the best, but reasonably capable.

So Mr Bigred, what is your solution and contribution to helping these people to become skilled in the blacksmiths' craft?

[Dave Hammer]

This is an observation, not an attack.

From post 1..... "in every single place I have worked it has been the simplest of matters to sort the trained from the self-taught - think about it - that means something. The only way to maintain standards within the trade (WHETHER IT BE BLACKSMITHING, FABRICATION, WELDING OR THE minor metal trades) is for basic competence to be established through the awarding trade bodies."

From post 12....... "suppose also that I have a little bit of a jaundiced eye having just lost out on a pretty lucrative railing and gate job to a mob I know to be no more than tackers and welders' mates."

Actually, I get a little chuckle when someone preaches that the only qualified folks are those that have formal training papers. I never deride education, but experience and results are what reigns in the end. I think that the extracts from posts 1 and 12 provide an insight into bigred.

I have seen some AMAZING work, done by both centified (whatever that means) and un-certified blacksmiths. If you look for poor work, you can certainly find it from both classifications also.

[macbruce]

''Plater'', Hmm, I reckon this means ''HACK'' across the pond but I can't find it defined in UK slang......
I've got a little story about a plater, a home owner and me........About 2 years ago I was summoned to a high end house in Breckinridge CO to look at an interior curved stair railing and balcony project. Once I arrived I noticed in the garage all sorts of iron detritus that could only have come from a previous attempt to fabricate a curved stair rail....All sorts of shorts of mangled steel littered the floor including a spiral piece of grip rail made in a roller that obviously was meant to grace the top of the rail. I was told I was expected to use what was left of the first attempt at building the rail so as to keep the cost down and shook my head and said, lets see the inside...... <_< .......The plater had been busy indeed, part of the rail was on the beautiful oak stairs only the top rail wasn't continuous, it addressed the pitch like you would an exterior fence with separate panels that stepped up/down in between posts to follow the grade......Totally out of code. Why hadn't they used the curved rail??? I was curved for a right had stair, not a left... :lol:......At this point I told em that I could use the machine forged balusters but the rest I would have to cut up and scrap for a price, which would make the expected savings on materials just about moot......Anyway I gave them a number to do it right and they went with a cheaper bid.....I could list a number of points regarding this tale but I think they're obvious.......... ;)

[Clif]

John B,

Thanks for the info. I have looked at the Guild's site, but you're too far for a weekend training trip. I will go over the list from the link to see who nearby will help me. Much obliged.

[Wayne]

Nice one John B, better than I could put myself.

[JNewman]

John B,

Thanks for the info. I have looked at the Guild's site, but you're too far for a weekend training trip. I will go over the list from the link to see who nearby will help me. Much obliged.

I just looked up the distance. It's only a 5 hour drive. Here in Ontario I have driven 6 hours to Ottawa Ontario for an Ontario Artist Blacksmith meeting that was only a day event. Many of our members often drive 4 hours for a meeting. People around here drive 6-7 hours for quad state and there are lots who travel much further.

Jump in your car and make the trip to Westport. Ideally find someone local who wants to go as well so you can carpool. You will be amazed at the difference a weekends instruction from experienced smiths will make.

[John B]

Thanks Wayne, and to Clif, we can arrange a course to suit your requirements over a longer period if you wish, unlike a college we have complete flexibility over what we put on and when, for individuals or groups,

What you see on the website is what we offer as requested and generally proved useful, for under 18's we do a one to one (Plus guardian for security reasons) seperately booked as we can do for indivisduals or groups,

Our three day course is popular because travelling time is reduced as opposed to taking the Taster day and Joining methods courses, and participants have enouhgh knowledge to go away and make many traditionally made items improving as they go.

These 3 day course started as a flippant reply to the question "How long does it take to become a blacksmith?", and I replied "Three days and a lifetime", so the courses were started to prove a point, and they seem to be working better than anticipated.

This is what the students make



If they are succesful we issue a certificate, if not, they don't get one, They don't need one as they have the physical pieces to show their competence, the certificate also carries a photo of their completed items



The certificates also carry details of the skills demonstrated on the course.

Another thing we do is to provide information after the course is completed should attendees need advice, try that when you have completed a college programme, or left a company apprentice scheme.

Thats our take on a solution to Bigred's problem re training and qualifications in the 21st century, still waiting to hear his.

[Wayne]

Hi Clif,
I did not realise, how is the forge doing?
Given time I plan to retire mine this winter and build a new one.

[Dan P.]

Hi Clif, have a look here http://blacksmithsco...rdHolders.shtml...

And they are all Qualified by Big Reds standards.

John, please believe me when I say that I do not visit this forum to contradict you, but I don't think many of the people on that list would meet bigred's standards at all.

[Crunch]

OZ never did give nothing to the TIN MAN that he didn't allready have

LOL! Good one!

I predict this will not end well for BigRed.

[dbrandow]

interested amateur....For my money, if you want to be a thing, then be that thing - don't play at it

We shouldn't be allowed to have hobbies and/or attempt to earn some money through our hobbies? Absurd and inflammatory.

If the trade is allowed to be fragmented and unqualified (rather than unskilled) 'work trained'...people flood our markets, this decline will continue and the formally trained artisan will disappear - all I am doing is defending the integrity of the trade I love.

I'm not sure where bigred lives, but I've seen no evidence of this so-called "flood" of untrained blacksmiths overwhelming the poor trained professional. The number of full-time, professional blacksmiths around here who deserve that title appears to be going up, not down.

Again, the underlying point about safety and the point about having a formal apprenticeship/training program for those who chose to undergo it are perfectly valid and worthy of consideration. But the way he's chosen to frame the argument buries the lead underneath his own arrogance and snobbery.

[John B]

John, please believe me when I say that I do not visit this forum to contradict you, but I don't think many of the people on that list would meet bigred's standards at all.

Contradict away Dan, I too can be educated, an I am definitely fallible with a lot to learn.

I am glad I have retired now, the only problem being with retirement is you don't get a day off !

For better or worse, the WCB is supposed to be the ones rewarding with awards what they regard to be the peak of Blacksmithing, the awards aren't officially recognised as a qualification, but there are some excellent smiths amongst the award winners, and some have even been to college or time served their apprenticeship. They are also contributing into trying to improve and keep alive the craft by sponsoring events and bursaries for students of the craft.

As to Bigreds requirements, It appears blacksmithing will be another DODO in the offing, Well, not if I and other dedicated people can help it.

All he's frightened of is someone taking his work away, it may not be a level playing field, but its an open market place, and if someone can do the job quicker, better or at less cost, then compete, or get out of that market, and concentrate on what you can do that the competition can't.

I've seen them come, and I've seen them go, all the while maintaining my standards and integrity and paying the bills.

[nonjic]

In the circles i mix with in UK industry a 'plater' is a pretty skilled guy who does all the 'working out' and tacking up, prior to the job going to a welder, who does all the donkey work staring at a spark, running all the beads! Not a derogatory term at all.

[Francis Trez Cole]

Safety is just good common sense . As a full time blacksmith my real money comes from welding and my certification. I too am self taught. I combine the art I learned in school with the love for the metal. The real bottom line is at the end of the day do you have people who fund you art and like your style? I worked it as a hobby's for many years and made money the first day I lit off the forge.

[JNewman]

Big Red I am confused at how you mention that you feel that shops or Blacksmiths should need certification before being able to call themselves Blacksmiths and then primarily speak about electric welding quality. While I realize many shops these days do find it necessary to do welding as a large part part of their work. not all do. Many of the fabrication shops around here have Welding Bureau Certification most of the blacksmith shops do not. Personally most of the forged work that leaves my shop has no welding done here, some of it has a requirement that no welding takes place to the job. Much of my work does does get welded after leaving my shop but none of the shops that do that welding call themselves blacksmith shops. If I need critical welding done for things like lifting devices I get a certified welding shop to do the welding (their rates are lower than my blacksmithing rates).

I do agree that a formal apprenticeship does speed up the learning process and can help fully train a tradesperson. But the current availability of courses and sharing of knowledge in the blacksmith community really helps to offset the lack of formal apprenticeships.
I have not served an apprenticeship in blacksmithing and there are many things I would have learned much faster, but I did learn from many more people through the years than I would have had I been an apprentice in a small shop doing a narrow range of work. I have been forging for almost 25 years now and am still regularly learning both from others and by myself.

I did do a formal apprenticeship as a pattenmaker. I started my apprenticeship in a large foundry pattern shop. There were 2 other apprentices who were a few months ahead of me. I learned a lot in that first year about that foundry's process and the basics of patternmaking. But I only made 2 patterns in that year, we did lots of repairs, adjustments, and risers and gating. I realized I was not really learning the trade because I was not building patterns. There was a strike at the foundry and I took that as an incentive to get out and get an apprenticeship where I would learn. I found a job half an hour further from home and took a pay cut to get a job where I would learn. I went to night school with the 2 other apprentices that I had worked with where things had not changed as far as learning.

We all wrote our tests around the same time and all became journeymen patternmakers. They had the same papers that I had but when the foundry closed they had to leave the industry because they did not know how to build patterns at a journeyman level even though they had the same piece of paper I have. Any shop I have worked at when someone new started they were given a job to build. Not super hard but not really easy either. This is a bit of a test to see whether that piece of paper really means anything.

[Glenn]

The thread has come to a ending point and conclusion, and has gotten off course from the original post. Time to close it down.