Daniel Moss Candlestick Challenge video

[BillyBones]

Thanks ya'll. I may have been a little quicker but early on i was having heat problems, i forgot to dump my ash when i cleaned out my fire pot and it was choking my airflow. 

JHCC, i did convert to inches. That metric mumbo jumbo just aint my thing. But mostly becuase i do not have any rulers in metric. 

For anyone wanting to convert that may not know 25mm is 1". Starting stock would be 4"x 1"x ~1/4" (6mm doesnt come out even so there abouts 1/4")

Isolate 35mm = 1 3/8" approx. 

Draw out the cup to 60mm = 2 3/8" 

The shaft 135mm x 8mm = 5 3/8" x 5/16" 

The shaft tapered 210mm = 8 3/8" 

The cup at 20mm = ~3/4" 

Fold and weld 90mm = 3 7/8" 

When i was working on transmissions converting English to metric became 2nd nature to me. Now these are not exact measurements the exact measurements would be 25.4mm to the inch. But really for us working hot metal 25 should be close enough. For instance 3/8" is actually 9.52mm, but for us i think 10mm works.

Hope this helps. 

[anvil]

very enlightening topic,,, Thanks, guys.  

Never forget, we are blacksmiths,,, show us what you want and we will make it,,,, not use it.   I dont need to know how to use a plow to make a plow, nor a sword. Just give me a drawing and come back in a week.

[jlpservicesinc]

Billybones,  Nice job. Very helpful

The English measurements were on the second photo. 

The cup should read 3/4"ID vs OD

Remember the measurements are off some..  The fold and fireweld at 90mm was not on the money if one wanted 10mm of shank sticking up. 

[BillyBones]

I was useful for once... dont tell the wife. 

[Frosty]

Close anyway Billy, 1" = 25.4mm. Yes it actually makes a difference in most cases. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chad J.]

Almost got it.   The forge weld failed  but that was the first time I got the propane forge hot enough to try.  Guess I'll try again tomorrow

[BillyBones]

On 3/24/2022 at 6:18 PM, Frosty said:

Yes it actually makes a difference in most cases.

Frosty, to clarify what i meant was if i have project that is in metric and calls for 25mm square bar say, i am not going to try and draw .4mm off of 1" bar to get 25mm, i am just going to use the 1" bar and adjust all my measurements to the closest i can in English then use what is readily available to me. 

[Frosty]

Of course not, most hand forged projects aren't particularly precise. Mine aren't or I size them with swages or a monkey tool. 

My intent was to say that being a couple MM off converting from Inch, to metric can really mess things up and 25.4 is an easy number to remember. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

Agreed, especially over a long length it will matter. 

That little bit of forgiveness is a thing i love. I spend all day dealing with tenths of thousandths of an inch it is nice to be able to say "close enough" sometimes. 

[Frosty]

Working at the soils lab did nothing to temper my upbringing in a machine, metal spinning shop that did a LOT of aerospace work. Would you believe the roof on this house is (or was) accurate to +/- 1/64" on all dimensions and angles?

One of the big reasons I took up smithing is to decompress from Dad's shop and the crazy specs he worked with on a daily basis. Unless it's needed I do everything at the anvil by the good old Mark One Eyeball.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Chad, looks pretty good..  There should be a round section under the candle holder and on the spike running along side the candle holder. 

Are they needed.. Probably not..  But the skill set represented in the drawing is one of measure..  Or measurements. 

on 99% of the items I make they are forged to a specific size..   Where something will vary is the weight..  Axes are a great example..  Its the shape to me that is the most important.. The weight is secondary and can vary some.. 

Not sure what the 6 3/8- 6 5/8" represents..  I think it has something to do with the original forging out to the marks on the anvil.  



 

[Jobtiel1]

Converting the other way around can also get interesting, sometimes when I try to follow and convert from inches to mm it results in stock sizes I cant really get. Often you can get by with thinking about what the part you're making does. When converting 3/8ths of an inch I take 9mm, and I can only get 8 or 10 mm, so rivets for tongs get 8 mm, while a handle for a forge tool gets 10 mm.

~Jobtiel

[Rojo Pedro]

An improper conversion from meters to feet just cost my company 1.4 million. Not blacksmith related just helping others to learn from our mistake. (The simplest double check would have caught it but no, they are understaffed and overworked)

[JHCC]

5 hours ago, Rojo Pedro said:

just cost my company 1.4 million

1.4 million what? Dollars, pounds, euros, toothpicks? We need units!!

[jlpservicesinc]

JHCC I would assume $$$ but you are correct.. Assume.. right.. 

I found it interesting what we see here as stock sizes for nuts and bolts are not stock sizes in materials on the Metric metals market..  

6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, etc, etc..  I assume are the stock sizes..  But here the bolt head sizes are up from 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 etc, etc

3/8" is not 10mm.. 7/16" and 11mm,   13mm and 1/2" are pretty close, 9/16 and 14mm, 5/8" and 16mm, 3/4" and 19mm, 7/8" and 21mm..  Again close enough for bolt sizes especially on modern bolts that don't seem to have the same close tolerances of the 50 and 60's..  

Having a good ruler with both " and MM is handy for the occasions like this that the chore is MM/CM..  Or electronic that does it. 

Often times I will use my digital calipers which will read both and use that to figure out the closest " or mm when looking for substitute parts or bearings. 

I have metric bearings in a Buffalo blower from 1911..  Go figure..  

 

[Rojo Pedro]

Dollars US. The mistake was converting the orthometric height published in meters by using 3.2808... feet per meter instead of the proper .3408 meters to the foot. A small discrepency but it added up when starting from sea level like Billy said. 

This amounted to a 1 foot bust and caused the contractor to move 330,000 yards of fill dirt twice. It is a huge site. 

It started when producing the topo map and wasnt noticed until they went to tie in the sewer line and found our site was too high. Dosent sound like much but building height restrictions are very strict on the site.

Very much a rookie mistake that should have been caught well before any dirt was moved or designed for that matter. 

[ThomasPowers]

Chicken feed compared to crashing  the Mars Climate Orbiter back in 1999!  US$125 million...

[Frosty]

Remember the Gimli glider!

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

We had a mistake recently at my work. It cost us $80K (US), not near as much but i came down to not paying attention. Nothing wrong with the parts all made to spec. The problem was material. The parts were for the US military and the contract states that material must be sourced domestically, well some one in the office ordered the material, brass by the way, from China. 

[Anachronist58]

Billy, a mistake like that should have been nearly impossible to make...

Robert Taylor

[jlpservicesinc]

Robert.. If there is a will there is a way.. 

The employee's of the town are known as public service/servants..  Yet they don't want to be helpful..  Are they really doing their jobs..  (a mistake like this should never happen either)..  You call them to ask them a question and it's like your trying to pull their teeth out..   Forbid they make suggestion on how to get a job done..(how would you lay that pipe? Oh, I can't help you with that.. You need to hire someone who knows what they are doing.....   LOL.. 

I feel that mistakes like not serving the public in a credible way is way more important than a company losing that much money..  Of course if it's a matter of the doors closing because of a mistake that is one thing.. 

The buck always gets passed downwards..   

I've been dealing with the public servants again and the guy who took up the building inspectors job all ready told me he has it out for me..  LOL... 

I called him to talk about a new barn project.. I said hi, i'm Jennifer from 6 kenwood..    Oh, yes I have you in my sights, To much metal in the yard.. Looks like a junk yard..  Just waiting on a call from one of your neighbors to come down and read you the riot act..    

Me,  Oh, ok.. Can we setup an appointment to go over the new proposed building..  "i'm around in the morning.. Best time is 8am"..   Ok, I'll be there tomorrow at 8am, will that work?      Oh, yeah..  That should be fine.. 

8am comes and goes, 8:30 secretary comes in and asks..   Who are you waiting for.. The building inspector..  Oh, he should have been here by now.. He told me he was meeting with you..   8:45am I tell her I'm leaving.. I have to go to work.. I moved the appointment so I could meet with him originally. 

On the road.. 1030am call comes in.. It's the building inspector..  LOL..   Hi, I had to stop to talk to mr professional at the job site..   No Sorry.. Notta.. Just had to meet with professional at job site.. Called him on the way into the office.. 

[George N. M.]

Jennifer, I'd take that behavior up the chain of command to his supervisor and or whoever is on the town council from your area (Selectmen in MA?).  I would take the attitude that you are coming to them more in sorrow than anger and you don't want Mr. X's head on a platter but this is what happened to you and you don't feel that this is the best way to serve the public.  Perhaps Mr. X needs some gentle redirection in serving the public, even those persons in the public that he doesn't care for (possibly you).  I would look and speak as professionally as possible which adds to your credibility.  Someone in grubby jeans and an old tee shirt is not as credible as someone in nice "business" clothes.  That is an unfortunate reality in our world.  And it is best to appear to be someone that the person up the food chain will want to help.

I kind of wish that I was closer than 2000 miles away so that I could be your "mouthpiece."

Also, document all your interactions with the township.  When you have an on site visit to your property a video and audio recording of the interaction would be highly valuable.  A body cam or Go Pro would be just the ticket.

The issue of junk and/or trash is a touchy one.  A lot of people say, "Thant's not junk/trash, that's my stuff.  I moved to the country so I could have my stuff!"  The less visible it is and the more neatly it is stored the more it is stuff and not trash.  I used to tell folk that a pile of tree limbs and trunks were not firewood until it was cut, split and stacked.  Very often a project car is not a problem but the 4 or 5 parter vehicles feeding the project are.  So, the more you can keep stuff stacked and out of site the better.  Even a blue tarp staked down over a pile is a step in the right direction.

PM me if you want to discuss this further.

GNM

[jlpservicesinc]

George thanks for the info and words.

 

Ive started the organizing of treasures and moving stuff to the back outa sight.

 

Its drill presses, very large old drill press , 12" wood jointer, a pile of aluminum sheets, pipe, guard rails. 

 

And yes log length black locust wood i am saving for mezzanine build.

 

All the items have been positioned for them to be outa the way until they move into the new home. 

 

Sadly i end up working on a bunch of horses and by the time i get home it takes me 3 or 4 hrs to regain my energy.

 

I go out and putter and pick projects higher up the list but instead of instant results ,work, order parts, or make parts , rinse and repeat.

 

So even before this talk on the phone its spring time so all the yard work kicks into high gear. 

 

I have a few more things to move and will get back on school building. 

 

I've talked with all my neighbors and they are all ok with whats happening here and comment in a good way when something gets done.

 

They all know it will look better.

Spent a bunch of time working on this little fella. 

The main problem is i have no easy way of moving stuff around willy nilly. 

 

Just missed out on a 10k Lull. Argh

[Frosty]

Check with local laws, often speaking with public servants does not require they be notified the call is being recorded. Alaska is a single party consent state, don't know about yours.

If/when you talk to his supervisor suggest further public relations training and that using his position for personal preferences or as a weapon looks bad all round. Also, having an intermediate discuss the situation can have quite the effect. 

Lastly never go after his job, the union makes it nearly impossible to fire members. Instead go after his position, transferring problems elsewhere is the normal bureaucratic way to solve problem personnel issues. 

A key phrase to bring out if necessary is, "abuse of position. (or power)" If he exaggerates issues in his reports another poison arrow phrase is, "Gross misrepresentation."  That's a deliberate lie and one of the very few violations a union won't defend further than a token protest. In writing is of course, "falsifying records," and a firing offense. 

There are ways to deal with abusive inspectors but you have to play the system by it's rules. It's not hard but . . . requires more showers.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Anachronist58]

Good words from the Crew.  I am in constant apprehension of being once again code enforced on my sovereign territory...

Jennifer, what IS this tracked vehicle that you are working on!?

Robert Taylor