Welder Questions

[Chelonian]

Hi, hopefully this is the right place to post this. I'm starting to consider getting a welder, and I'm looking for advice on different options.

I think I'd like to start with a stick welder since they don't require the hassle of shielding gas, and I've heard from several sources that it is a good type to start with. Now the problem I'm facing: the only 230v circuits I have access to are wired with 20A breakers. I'm not an electrician, but I'm pretty sure that rules out being able to use a Lincoln tombstone welder for instance.

I'm assuming this amperage constraint this limits me to relevantly low-amperage welders, but I don't see myself needing to weld huge pieces of material anyway. Currently what I imagine I'd use it for is repairs and relatively light fabrication.

Am I better off  buying new, or trying to find a used unit? I don't mind waiting a while to find a good deal, but is buying an old one relatively risk-free as long as the leads are in good condition and it strikes an arc? If I do purchase one used, what amperage would be able to work with the 20A breakers? I know new welders have documentation with information about required input power, but an old one likely won't still have its manual. Is 100A a safe choice? Alternatively, if a new welder is a better choice, any specific recommendations that aren't too expensive?

If I'm missing any information, please let me know. Thanks!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

You can get manuals for all Lincoln welders on their web site.

[Kozzy]

Just for some rough "beginning"  numbers...went out and looked at my at my old Canox DC buzz box to give a starting point.

Maximum welding (output) amperage is 225.  230 V input, 45.5 amps at max except it specifically says 75 amps when shorted.

For general fabrication..though I rarely use this one...I tend to be in the 125 to 140 amp output range. That's typically with 1/4" thick or possibly thicker material.  I absolutely HATE doing thinner on this because either I am not "good" enough at welding to keep from blowing holes or the machine isn't (always blame your tools so you can feel vindicated).  Lower amps to better handle the thinner stock ends up being a frustration of sticking down electrodes for me as though I have to re-learn every time.  It does get a little easier if I am running a lot of bead and can get in a "groove"....I temporarily improve but the gaps between using it are so long that I also unlearn every time.

So....though you might be able to do some welding at 20 amps input, it might also be a quite frustrating prospect until you find your groove.  You'll be working at such low output amperage that penetration will always be a bit mediocre and rod sticking will probably be a regular thing.  However, it might work for the occasional minor and non-critical weld situation--just sticking some stuff together.

I'd personally lean toward one of the low end wire feed welders.  You throw a bit more money at them but it's really worth it in terms of usability and results, especially for someone who doesn't weld enough to get superior skills drilled in.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

My Lincoln Tombstone says 50amp input. I have two circuits that I use it with. One has 40amp double-pole breakers which I've used for years with up to 125amp output the other has 60amp double-pole breakers that it will run on at max output (i think is 275amps).

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Why not wire up a bigger circuit? Most dryers and ovens are on a 50A line.

You can run core wire in a MIG and not worry about a gas. My Lincoln SP100 will run gas or gasless wires.

[Chelonian]

Thank you for the responses and suggestions!

Perhaps wire-feed is a better choice here. I will look around at some when I have time.

I really don't know much about wiring circuits, but I will look to see if it's a viable option.

[JHCC]

Wire welding is easy to learn, and there are plenty of machines that plug into a regular 110/115v outlet.

[arkie]

Chelonian, your 230VAC circuit(s) are adequate for your welder, just make sure that ALL your WIRING, RECEPTACLES, PLUGS and BREAKERS are proper for carrying up to 50 amps or whatever your welder requires.  From your question, I would recommend you consult a licensed electrician to do ANY work on your welder circuit.  As others have mentioned, the 110/120VAC welders are underpowered for anything above 90-100 amps and that is really stretching it for anything but thin steel.

[Ohio]

Chelonian, I have a little Lincoln 140 MIG welder that I adore. Seriously. It's cute and it works very well for me. It runs on 110 and doesn't need shield gas (though I can hook up gas if I want).

I learned to MIG well on an HF special my buddy gave me and when I killed it, I bought the Lincoln. I'm lucky because I have two neighbors who are welders by trade who were very free with the commentary as I was welding up projects. Yes, they pointed and laughed, but I've gotten pretty good with the little Lincoln. I also took a 1-day class on basic welding that let me try different types of welding and welders, and that was really helpful. One thing I learned is that I suck at is striking an arc with a stick welder. Whatever the talent is to get that to work, I have the exact opposite talent. Even the instructor was like, "Yeah, how's about you go back to practicing with the MIG welder."

The Lincoln 140 I have takes reels of flux-core wire. A piece of advice---get good wire. Crappy wire makes crappy welds and is annoying. Also, follow the chart on the inside panel regarding the correct use of wire for the material you're welding. Accept that you'll be really bad at welding because, like playing the ukelele, you have to practice. And then you'll get the hang of it. Get a decent angle grinder and decent wheels because you'll be grinding a lot. Buy a good welding helmet, leathers, and respirator---Jody on weldingtipsandtricks.com gives very good advice about PPE and everything else welding. HF is not the place to buy that stuff, though Northern Tool has some good gear for not too crazy an amount of money.

You can use shielding gas with these small MIG welders. My welder neighbor said you get better welds, but you should still use the flux-core wire. You can use the weld mix (argon and CO2) or just CO2. I'm going to try just the CO2 because I already have a tank and I have to weld up some workbenches for my new shop.

Welding is useful and fun. It's also messy and dangerous. My neighbor literally set himself on fire last summer using his MIG. Two weeks in the hospital, skin grafts, it will take him another 9 months to heal. He has to wear Lycra to help prevent scar tissue buildup and he has chronic pain from nerve damage. He's getting better slowly and he was outside working on a new welding table last Friday.

Hope this helps.

[Kozzy]

Ohio made a good point on the PPE...but one thing you should always add when buying a welder is a good (large enough and properly rated) fire extinguisher that follows the welder around wherever you are using it.  Having it nearby and in a place you can grab it quicker than running across the room is no different than wearing a helmet--a requirement.  

2 times I've come close to danger.  One, I was stupid and didn't pick up some scrap paper from the floor in the area.  Lifted my helmet and there was a little camp fire right at my feet, looking for my pant legs.  The other was weird--my ex wife loved to throw about 6 dryer sheets in every load.  Those leave a flammable coating on fabric when you way over do.  I started feeling warm, lifted my helmet, and had blue flame crawling up my clothes.  It doesn't burn that hot (more like a barely visible alcohol flame) but with the wrong fabric, I would have been in some deep manure.

Anyway...be sure and cost protective measures into your welder purchase.  It's basically a one-time expense but well worth it.

[Glenn]

Look into a CO2 fire extinguisher or a Halon extinguisher to have close at hand.  There is little or no clean up from CO2 or Halon. A dry powder extinguisher throws powder everywhere, as it should, and clean up is a reminder not to set things on fire. 

When in doubt pull the trigger on the extinguisher. You can knock down a small fire on your own before the big red trucks are needed.

 

[Kozzy]

The negative about some extinguishers like CO2 is that they can blow loose fire material if you use them incorrectly.  In the kind of panic people tend to be in when using, inexperienced folks tend to point them directly at the fire which is not correct for just that reason.  You work your way toward the fire rather than directly spraying right at the center in most cases.

Some fire departments have public trainings on extinguishers that can be a handy half hour and worth it.  They'll often light a small fire and let people use an extinguisher to get a "feel" for what it does.  Yea, I know--it seems obvious--but having done it once on an actual fire does really help.  Long ago when I had to take that training for business I was surprised that even after being told pointing right at the fire could basically spread it, many people still did exactly that..and it splashed the oil they were using and spread.  It was also surprising how many people closed their eyes and acted terrified the first time they pulled the trigger..like it was going to blow up in their hands.

Or sacrifice an old extinguisher of your own just to get the feel.  Especially get a notion of just how quickly they run out:  Those really small ones often only give you 10 or 15 seconds.

[Glenn]

Thank you for the additional information.

[Marc1]

On 10/20/2019 at 7:26 PM, Chelonian said:

I think I'd like to start with a stick welder since they don't require the hassle of shielding gas, and I've heard from several sources that it is a good type to start with. 

As much as I love old welders, have a 200 amp buzz box and a 3 phase rocket welder ... the new inverter welders have come a long way from the initial poor reliability. An inverter be it using stick or mig or tig, will require a lot less power than a transformer. Consult an electrician as to how much power you can draw from your circuit and if it is feasible to be upgraded. 

Modern inverters can do more than just one task, so you can learn to weld using inexpensive rods, then try your hand at gasless MIG and if your machine does that, even TIG. Best of both worlds. An old buzz box is attractive because they can be had for very little money, typically $50 or so, but they can be unforgiving and learning from scratch on it can be a bit of a task. An inverter with all the electronics in it, is a breeze to use. 

[Steve Shimanek]

The issue with 110v welding machines tends to be lack of penetration on thicker materials (3/16 and thicker). Until some experience is gained, it can seem as if a weld has been made, only to discover that the bead did not penetrate sufficiently. Also, a regular 15 amp household circuit breaker will trip regularly using a welder on it, so 20 amp should be considered a minimum for those machines. An arc welder running on 110 volts can do some decent welding for small shop stuff if using small electrodes and multiple passes, and tends towards better penetration than a 110 volt wire feed welder.

[BubbaBeef]

A 110v welder will draw twice the amps of a 230v welder, given the same output voltage.  The new inverter welder make very good use of current.  You might be surprised what one of the cheap little Chinese 230v welder can do with 20A.  I don't know what your budget it but I would look at a multi function machine.  Mig is so much cleaner and easier to do that arc.  If you don't have a bottle for shielding gas, use flux core wire.  Good Luck. 

[Chelonian]

It's been quite a while, and I still haven't gotten a welder yet (mostly because of indecisiveness as to what type would work best). However, recently a friend with several types of welders let me try them to get an idea of what they're like. Of the ones I tried, I liked using the stick welder best. It was an old 230A transformer welder. I asked him if there was any chance one like it would work with a 20A 220V breaker, and he thought it would work as long as I didn't set the output much above 100A.

It was set at 100A when I was using it, and to me it seemed like it had quite a bit of penetration for the types of things I foresee myself needing to weld (Of course I have almost no experience, so take that observation with a large grain of salt).

So my question is: do you think his estimation that an old transformer stick welder could work up to about 100A before tripping a 20A breaker is correct? I just want to make sure, since it would be disappointing if I bought one and found it tripped the breaker whenever I went over 50A or something.

Thanks!

[Frosty]

What do you think you'll need to weld over 100A? 

I wouldn't even consider running it on a 20A breaker! That's like driving a car with a working brake on one wheel. 

I love transformer welders but they're really old school. What's the brand and manufacture date?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Chelonian]

I don't foresee need to use over 100A; or at least I doubt the 20A breaker will allow me to. As I said, I'm just wondering if getting around 100A output from a 20A breaker is realistic.

I don't remember the brand of the one I tried (maybe Airco?), and I don't know when it was made beyond that it was fairly old. I always thought that all the old transformer welders were more or less the same on the inside, but maybe I'm misinformed about that.

[Frosty]

I'm not really familiar with generator welders, I just have fond memories of an old Lincoln that looked like a torpedo sticking out of a red car grill. Probably the smoothest easiest to use welder I've ever used. I was just curious is all, I'm no electrician. 

My reason for never putting something on a too small circuit breaker is you never know when someone won't max it out. Welders especially are subject to the "A little is good a LOT must be better," crowd. The same folk who have the oxy reg on their oxy acet  torch cranked to 30psi or more. 

Like I say I'm not an electrician so I don't know what running a circuit close to tripping the breaker long term will do. It's just that conservative voice whispering in my ear.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[bubba682]

In my shop i run a 50 amp breaker that runs a stove plug recepticle my welders plug into that along with my press there not run at the same time lol but that handles all the heat i wanna run in my welders no problem ,for example.A 20 amp breaker will kick out alot welding you might get away with a 110 machine but it all depends what your welding the old machines like a your talkin about will need amps so i'd say hook up a stove plug set up if ya can or get a price from an electrician..

[localsmith]

Whatever you do, DO NOT buy an inverter welder. There's good reason why they are not used in an industrial welding setting. I would not recommend an inverter welder to my worst enemy. 

[cleatusj]

2 hours ago, localsmith said:

DO buy an inverter welder. 

As a Newby welder and machine user, you should check your information before so stanchly telling someone not to doo something.

We have been using several Miller inverter welders, for structural vertical up welds with 1/2" and thicker metal. We use 7018 and they are powered by boom lifts on board generator. These are small suitcase machines.

There are welding forums that have very good reviews of both Chinese and name brand inverter machines. 

[arkie]

localsmith....that's a pretty broad condemnation of inverters and shows your lack of knowledge regarding same.  How about some evidence to support your claim?  Industrial applications are mostly engine-driven machines and are not in the same category as inverters.

The early inverters were not as stable or durable/reliable compared to the quality inverter welders made today.  I would recommend a quality, name brand inverter welder to anyone.  There are at least 5-6 manufacturers of quality inverters out there today, including Miller, Lincoln, ESAB and others that will weld til the cows come home.  I've been using an ESAB inverter for over 5 years now and they are extremely reliable as far as I am concerned.  The China issue as it relates to welders has become a moot point.  Almost all the major welder manufacturers are now outsourcing the majority of their products, both inverter and non-inverter types, save for the engine driven welders to China....as Bob Dylan said , "...the times they are 'a changin'".

[localsmith]

I purchased and used an inverter welder and it died it under a month. The power supply or something else inside made a loud POP and that was the end of that! Inverter welders are basically computers which is why they are capable of so many functions. The downside to that is that they are much more prone to failure due to all of the extra computer components and other things that can go bad within the welder. Ever since that failure I decided to only buy welders and other equipment that's made in the USA or Europe. Cheap Chinese components like power supply's and motherboards (which inverter welders have) have too high of a failure rate.