JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[jlpservicesinc]

Arkie,  I'd say the tire bender and upsetter usage will be based on demand.

 

The course offerings will be based on traditional methods mainly.

Ideas for courses so far..

Tomahawk,  thumblatches,  ax, tong, hacksaw, hammers. Bit braces, auger bits, hinges ( all varieties).knife, tool steels form and function. Martial art tools, timber framing, traditional fastereners (making taps and dies), filing vises, pots and pans, scissor and shears, ..

And maybe some of the tools I developed like the vertical holdfast  and vise tongs. 

Going to be neat for sure. 

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

How about themes?   Like:

Early American Cooking Tools: Spiders, Trivets, Fireplace Cranes, Spits, Spit holders, Trammels, etc.

Traditional Woodworking Tools: Axes, Drawknives, Augers, Froes, Log Dogs, Chisels, etc.

Early American Door and Cabinet Hardware: Latches, Hinges, etc.

Blacksmithing Tools: Chisels, punches, drifts, hot cuts, hammers, hardies, hardy tooling, etc.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thomas, that's a great idea. Thank you.  I'll use that for sure. 

[JHCC]

You could split Traditional Woodworking into Cabinetmaking and Carpentry, if there's enough interest.

[ThomasPowers]

Working out the progression from simpler items to more complex ones; perhaps having an intro course that folks have to take to get into the advanced ones.

You are located in a great area to provide "Colonial Ironwork"  instruction.  Shoot maybe kick it up a notch and offer a master class in working with real wrought iron on one of the projects.

Unlike out here where Colonial Ironwork means Spanish Colonial and as Frank Turley told me---there wasn't a lot of it in the early days! Iron having to be shipped from Spain to Veracruz in Mexico and hauled by Ox Cart up the Camino Real to Santa Fe. So the ornate window bars common in that era Spain were made of wood in Santa Fe.

[jlpservicesinc]

JHcc, I like the idea and do have some back ground in hand planing of boards and such.. But ideally only want to have metal working in the shop.   With this said.  Handle fitting of wood  does come under the banner of metal working tools.  
I do like the idea.. If the shop was bigger It would have a home, but never accounted for that extra area needed for wood benches.   Setting up to do cabinet doors would not take much room and would be a great way to learn the basics.. But again, where do I store all the wood needed for such an endeavor? 

Thomas, you are a brain child for sure..  All these wonderful ideas.   

I have found through questions that colonial or period correct work is popular all over the USA and have even fielded some questions from Europe. 

I was hoping to setup an apprentice program as well for the truly dedicated.. 

Great ideas Thomas..  

Keep them all coming people..   If you have interests, share them.. Maybe the courses could have some other aspects.. 

[JHCC]

I wasn't thinking of separate classes for woodworking, but separate classes for making the tools for carpentry and for cabinetmaking.

[jlpservicesinc]

Oh,  sorry I jumped the gun into  make the tools and learn how to use them..  

 

[ThomasPowers]

Axes vs Planes?

I have a few source books I like to go through though "Colonial" is awfully modern for the stuff I am interested in; ow would the Saxon and Danish setting in the UK be considered "Early Medieval Colonial"?

"Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" by John Seymour Lindsay is one I've "borrowed" designs from; I like their drawing style better than "Early American Wrought Iron" by  Albert H. Sonn; though Sonn's  has a LOT more examples to choose from and is a bit more location specific.

[JHCC]

No, that's when you forge a partnership with the woodworking school!

[George N. M.]

Jennifer;  Do you have a copy of "Professional Smithing" by Donald Streeter (1980)?  I found my copy at the bookstore of the Chicago Art Institute in the early '80s.  It is very well done and has lots on how to forge colonial latches, locks, etc..  If you don't have or cannot find a copy PM me and I'll photocopy mine and send it to you. It's 132 pages of about 8.5 x 11 format.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

PS I checked Amazon and see that you can get a paperback copy for $21.95, possibly of a more recent edition.  In any case, if you or any one else doesn't have it, I recommend it.

[SLAG]

SLAG   here,

Jennifer of (JLPservicesinc) wrote,

" ... But again, where do I store all the wood needed for such an endeavor? ".

Could you suspend it from the ceiling of the building?

I suspend most of my wood from the rafters of our* large shed.

I hope that tidbit is helpful.

I am a bit too far away to take classes from you.

Sigh.

SLAG.

*(Marg, the Marvelous, uses it also).

[jlpservicesinc]

George,  I don't have a copy as he was a huge fan of automation.  There is a whole back story behind it and there is a history thing that goes along with it. 

I have never been a fan of production..  Preferring custom..   Sadly 30 years ago Streeters book didn't interest me in the least once he broke\ out all the machines.. 

If you haven't all ready it might do you well to look at the About me thread or the google photos album.. 

https://goo.gl/photos/jNR8MRdz5TSU3Nm47

 

Slag,  I won't be suspending wood from the ceiling..  LOL.  

Metal working center..  Went with steel building to eliminate fire hazards..   LOL.. 

with that said.. The building will have Infrared heating hung from ceiling. 

With that said..  There is the possibility of using the horse run in for wood storage once the new barn is built.. 

We will have to see where it morphs but just sticking with metal to start out with..  Gotta stay on point..  Once a full season or at least gets going it will be possible to re evaluate and see at that point. 

 

[George N. M.]

Jennifer:  My only exposure to Mr. Streeter has been his book and I wouldn't call it particularly automated except his use of jigs and such to produce the same shape and bends over and over again.  I have liked his treatment of period lock work even though I have not done much of that over the years. 

I agree about production work.  I get bored doing the same thing over and over again.  I once took an order for 500 hand forged nails and I still hate doing nails unless i have to and it has been over 30 years.  But, on the other hand, only a few times in my life have I had to support myself with only my anvil and hammer (the nail order was from one of those times) and if I was offered an order for X things at $Y per thing the X times Y = $Z would look pretty attractive.  Now, with smithing only providing supplemental income I can be much more picky about what I spend my time on.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[jlpservicesinc]

George.    I thought the book was decent.. It holds useful information for many..  

So to elaborate some..   40 years ago there were a few smiths that came onto the scene and are excellent smiths in their own right.   What happened is it became " How fast can you make a latch"..   And even now there is a thing about how fast a person can make a latch in the "period" of hardware.    

Even 30 years ago when I found Streeters book I had no interest in jigs and such (what I referenced as automation) he also goes on to use punch presses and such for making arrow latches and such. 

The problem I have is simply this..   If I am making something by hand.. I already know it will take me X, Y, Z time wise..  Since I used to quote out every job with a 30% over rider  If i came out under time I made a few extra dollars but since it was custom if I went over I had something to cover that extra labor time. 

Now if I use jigs and can produce 10 latches in 3 hrs I have no only cut into my pricing market.. but how does one justify the amount a latch cost..  Back in 1990 I was getting 60.00 per hour most smiths were only getting 30.00.. and many times they would do "Piece work". (35-60 for a latch set), I was getting 120 or better per set.  Ah, see this is where Streeter came in..    Make them faster means you can make more money.  LOL..  Very business like..   I understand it all but I'd rather charge a decent wage and produce as quickly as I can vs start the piece work thing.. 

Stock list items are a different story and a regular Suffolk Bean pattern latch as an example is well a stock list item for any good hardware smith worth a salt..  

So, Streeter's book is a good one to have on the shelf, but it would not be a book I would go to for information on hardware..  nearly all of it is on how to produce hardware more quickly.. 

I actually like making nails and nearly all things..   I just enjoy moving metal around.    If I am taking on a paying job it is not as much fun because I always have the quote sitting in the back of my mind..  

I now get 125.00 for hardware, 150.00 for tools and 175.00 for wrought iron work..    What this means is I walk in the shop and pick out an order.  I start the timer and start forging. Project gets done. I stop the clock and right down on the order how long it takes.  That is the bill. 

Back when i was full time.  I would quote a job.. Say a thumblatch at 85.00 and at 60 per hour it meant I had 1hr and 15mins to forge the latch.  Each minute was 1 dollar.   So say it was a tough day and the first latch took me 1hr 30minutes..  The whole time I would be gotta go faster, gotta go faster.  this was the mantra.  Eventually i got much faster and soon I was about to make up the missing time on the first latch and by the 3rd latch i would be on my quote. 

It is not a great way to make a living but I did learn a lot and today I have no interested in selling anything.  

So, when i job comes in and someone wants it quoted I do this high enough that I would not want to pay it.  Person agrees to the quote I take on the job.   Person wants to dicker price I just walk away. 

Took me 13years to find my way back from complete burn out, so now I don't bother.  

I'd rather demonstrate and teach then to sell product.   Nearly every item I make is custom with nothing ever being really the same.   I don't think I have made the same item but once in 6 years.  And the fun in that was that there was nearly a year between the 2. So, forging to dimension was fun and challenging.  

Interesting are these latches as 1 was made a year later.. Also 1 is filed smooth the other was just forged smooth. 

I sold both of these latches with back groups and was very happy with the rate. 

[jlpservicesinc]

So there is a story behind this latch too..   I met a guy at a demo..  I did not know he was a smith of his own merit. 

he posted a photo of the latch with the dollar bill..    Not knowing the guy I told him I'd be happy to come to his shop and help him forge that latch. 

So, I made the latch from the photo he posted on FB.  The sketch is of the latch.  The photos are of the second latch which I documented and filmed for a time when I wanted to make a new video. 

[George N. M.]

J, I pretty much agree with you on everything including how to price a job.  In the end, all we have to sell is our time and skill.  And trying to make things faster and faster is, as you well know, the fastest way to burn out, when it isn't fun any more.

Question on the dollar bill latch:  Are the decoration lines struck or filed in?  They are very well done.

Have a Happy Turkey Day and stay safe.  Better times are coming.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks George..  they were filed.   Very few lines were struck on more modern hardware (mid 1600-up).. Files have been around for a really long time and the amount of work to chisel in everything is very time consuming.  With that said, I do once in awhile do it for certain aspects where I want a really clean line.. 

I think it's different today also in that help or helpers are so few..  The dish to the handle makes it tough to do a good job quickly. 

I didn't mind the faster thing..   It was meeting with people that finally got me.    The story is in the about me thread here on IFI..   Which at some point I need to get back over there to continue the story..   (Pheonix rebirth).. 

I love forging metal and once the shop is complete I will get back up to speed. Tough with so little time at the forge. 

Happy Thanksgiving to you and the family as well..   Much to be thankful for..  

[jlpservicesinc]

So, few days ago (like 4 days ago) I moved the doors into position put insulation between them both and bolted them together..  I then lifted them into position and they did not fit..   Few choice words were spoken..  

Turns out because I only measured both sides at the walls (only way I could get a tape measure to stand up), the center sags some on the building so was exactly 1/2" off at the center.. 

I knew there was some sag but also figured part of the sag was the trim..  

Not only are the doors large (tall) but also heavy and working by myself I had to figure out a way to get them into position. 

It took a few days but finally settled on a couple of straps off the man lift and once I figured that out I once again moved the doors into position knowing they would not fit. 

I get them into position and noticed if I used a lever between the door and trim/jamb the door would slide in but I could not slide in insulation which was my original plan.. 

So, I was able to slide the doors in but they will never move as they are 1/2" too tall.. ARgh.. 

To late in the game to make them operating doors right now anyhow and just planned on putting them up solid. 

I will next year pull them down and make them the required length keeping in mind now the adjustments that will have to happen then..  I'll have lights, electric and welders in at that point so will be easier to take care of vs moving out, over to the garage etc, etc.. 

 

[JHCC]

Aargh!

[anvil]

Lol, measure twice( at least once!)cut once.  

Happens to all of us, at least once. 

A note to others, as I'm sure you know this, I use a 6' metal folding ruler for most of my measurements. It had its strengths and weaknesses. It doesn't burn up in the fire is a real plus.

When I run into a situation measuring like Jen's above and a tape is not precise, I measure down from the top twards the middle and make a mark. Then measure up from the bottom to your mark. Add the two measurements together and as long as your math is correct, your total measurement will be right on "the mark."

[Old Crew]

Jennifer

You may not have to redo your door. You may be able to unscrew all of the sheets on the door header and prop it up with a 2x4 to the same height it is at the door jambs and then re screw your header sheets in new holes in the header. I see you un screwed to get your doors in. If necessary with the sheets mostly unscrewed you could trim the bottom of the sheets to get little more height?

Sorry for the additional frustration though.

David

[ThomasPowers]

Sag and twist are the demons of building structures!  Can you put a turnbuckle in to raise the center to where it's supposed to be?

[jlpservicesinc]

Anvil, I have measured that space 300times if not a million..  

Great info on measuring just the same and it wasn't the doors that were off but the center measurement which was in the middle of the air.    Really I hate to sound like this but having a 2nd person makes all the world of difference in cases like this.. Someone with that second set of eyes and hands to keep things were they belong.. 

My metal tape measure has a magnet on it. but there was no way to really measure it accurately..  I'll know better next time to account for it right off..   

Old crew..  I actually tried to loosen the bolts and do the prop thing when the frame was just there. A down and dirty so to speak.

For some reason it sagged and i could not get it to correct with the limited 4 bolts I loosened and retightened.. I figured it was a design element they had worked in that would be corrected with trim..  In other words I imagine if I loosed all the bolts and then proped it up and then re did the sheathing..  It might level out.  Honestly I don't know.. 

I am done with it this year though..  It will function as a wall that will be well insulated..   Next year i will have to make hinge plates and such for either side of the opening as well as for the doors so can address it in a shop that has power, and welders that can reach the spot handy..   

Thomas,  that actually might do it. But, that end wall is a total composite of 2 C channels bolted together with just a few uprights tying it all together. 

I realized now after looking at Garage doors and openers that the design is for that..  They leave just enough material to mount the items to. 

Ideally the sides need to have 2"X ?? to run all the way up to the torsion springs.. So there is not much more there. 

The outside sheating as Old crew pointed out would possibly be used to hold it in position.. 

With the inside bolts would have to be loosened then moved up and then new screws put in. 

So wires with turn buckles might do it. 

[Frosty]

It's possible to measure a thing too many times, I've been there done that. Another problem I've worked hard to overcome is my idea of precision. My idea is WAY too close for building construction, I kept getting yelled at by the builder who helped with the house for measuring +/- 1/8" and that's so sloppy it gives me the willies. On the other hand the roof is square to within 1/64" on any corner to corner or 3,4, 5 measurement we took. 

I had to yell at him for trying to guess how to compensate measurements when I was cutting. Don't try to figure out which side of the mark I cut, give me a number and that's what you'll get! 

Bummer about the door. I'd almost be tempted to grind some of the concrete but they I'd have to polish it to make it right. 

Take a breath, eat some leftovers and take it with a steady strain, it'll be okay. I have confidence.

Frosty The Lucky.