JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks Jasent,  I am a proud puppy for sure.  Can't wait till it's done..   I mean electric and heat..  

So little video of the shop as it was a few days ago. 
 

 

[Frosty]

I'll bet you're waiting for the electric Jennifer it needs LIGHTS! 

I believe much of the drive to push a tax "savings" by depreciating new equipment is from the lenders. A wink and a nod to everybody raking a piece from the regulators, makes it possible. 

I barely passed general business in high school but even then I couldn't get a satisfactory explanation how paying $30,000/year interest to save $20,000/year in taxes was profitable. Oh no they never laid it out in simple numbers in class but doing the class work and homework added up to paying more in interest that it saved in taxes. At the time a new house was running about $35k. but the total price after a 30 year mortgage was more than $100k. Where is that other $70k? Interest, how much did you save in taxes?  $15k maybe? 

The instructor really got ticked when I ran the numbers for renting an apartment and saving the difference to buy a house outright. Always seemed to work out that in about 15 years I could write a check after earning interest on the savings. The tax rate didn't change as my income didn't. 

I figure the only time it might pay maybe would be if you were on the edge of the next tax bracket.

Of course I'm not an economist, I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[jlpservicesinc]

You are correct..   I need to get out and dig a trench..   I bought my inside panels 2, 200amp  Sq D QO with main disconnect.   I also need to get a 400amp meter socket but cant pin down the right one to buy and a 400amp outside disconnect as well..    I was told for code there has to be a disconnect outside now..  

I priced out Milbank one that was a 400amp with disconnects inside the box and it was 3500.00 and change.  

The way a lot of businesses are run and what is promoted as good practice is really just buffalo dung. 

Really if every American ran their home the way Government and corps did, no one would own a home and everyone would be in debtors prison..  

You must have kept the teachers on their toes..    I bet you were a bunch of fun to hang out with.. 

Today I started on the back doors..   

I also moved the first pieces of blacksmithing gear into the shop. 

Feed back appreciated on the design aspect..  

I was originally leaning towards design 1 thinking that with all the connection points that the extra metal should be ridgid enough and stop the far corner from sagging. 

I then came up with design 2..  I have just enough metal to do 2 doors of design 2..  I'll have 2 pieces left over with design 1. 

 

[JHCC]

Better get that gear out of the bushes before the snow comes. 

[jlpservicesinc]

No overly concerned with that..  Sometimes I have to wait till the ground freezes totally before I can get back there to retrieve stuff.  

It's been rainy here with periods of frost, so the ground is pretty soft right now.  4x4 is barely enough and can lead to getting stuck quick.  This time of year I often resort to tire chains to chop through the mud.  Lotta clay in the soil. Once the back doors are done I will work in earnest to get the gear. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Wow, I figured I'd get some input as to door design..  More the merrier.. 

And since I did not get any help..      I had to go ahead and design it anyhow.  

I decided to use truss rods threaded to help square the door once it is up.  I won't be doing the hinges this year but just installing the doors as a solid wall.  Hinges will be next year.. I've got other things to move onto. 

Where I am at now is figuring out how to have these truss rods installed in an X and yet can be accessed so they can be adjusted. 

In order for them to work well, they need to go to each corner as closely as possible. 

I spent 2hrs just staring at this thing  which is prefectly rectangle and the 2 center sections are bolt in with brackets above and below with tension toward the center via the end bolts of which there are 4 each side 1/2-13.. 

[Deimos]

Why do you need truss rods in an x? Would one from the top where the hinge is to the opposite lower corner not be enough?

[jlpservicesinc]

I was thinking an X would control the other direction and once both are tensioned would lock in both aspects..  

Not much more work doing and X now  vs having to do it later. 

[Deimos]

Does that no just prevent the door from sagging to one side? Since you connect a part that is attached to something (the hinge) to the side that is free hanging. So to prevent the door from going all rhombus on you. 

You could attach a steel cable to the hinged side, run it trough the horizontal brackets and attach it to the lowest opposite corner. As a tension device you could make something like this:

[jlpservicesinc]

Yes, it is to control the sag once loaded..    

Where does the adjustment come in to account for sag? 

I don't have any cable on hand so will be using solid 1/2" with nuts and threaded rod.  The frame width in cross section  or lip height is only about 2". 

I love the drawing. 

There will be no access to the outside frame when installed there is trim that covers all of it. 

Only access will be on the inside. 

You can see the trim here on the opening..  it is just reversed on the door. 

[ThomasPowers]

I was thinking of pieces of angle iron that mount in the corners with a gusset welded across it with a hole that the end of the rod would hook into. The take up would be a turnbuckle in the middle with either hooks on the rods or the rods threaded.  Note this could be easily adjusted and a single access plate would allow access to both turnbuckles in the middle of the door and hopefully at a convenient height.

Of course I have run across some stout turnbuckles used for power poles at the scrapyard.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thomas that is a good way too. 

With items on hand without a trip to HD or the like is kinda tough these days. 

I don't have any cable or turn buckles other than some monster 1.25" ones.. 
 

So, after my initial build without a pivot it came to me about a redesign and as stated before.. I make something then figure out a better way. 

One thing I wanted to do is stablilze the side to side twist if the tension rod was in the middle. 

So this is what I came up with..    Thanks for the ideas..   If I had turn buckles and cable either idea would have been perfect. 

All I had was some all thread, 1/2" HR rod and some scrap 1.25" flat bar.  The short leg corner brackes and some filster bolts. 

So someone asked about why X bracing.    I remeber somewhere about tension bracing and that by having a slight tension on both X it actually makes the item stronger or more rigid.  So, by adjusting some tension into both rods it will want to stay straighter.   Again something I read years ago.  Once the ends can not expand outwards since they will be screwed onto both ends that lack of expansion in the middle somehow locks it all together vs just 1 side. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Well, went and did a few horses today and came home.. 21F, little hard to get motivated when it's that cold and have a little chill from ealier in the day. 

But, dragged myself out and made the next set of tie rod brackets..   I also stopped and picked up the new sheets for the door and the trim for over it. 

The new trim is much wider so will give good coverage at the top..  

The order was not complete so more items should come in on friday and I will go pick them up next week. 

The next batch of items is for the grey metal at the bottoms.. Screws, bottom enclosures and drip edge. 

I'm hopeful the workman door will come in by the end of the week..  Then I will only need the main 12X12 door..

Tomorrow I will finish rear door number 2 and move them into position. I might even be able to get them sheathed. 

Here is a better picture of the ends for the tension rods. 

[Steve Sells]

On 11/14/2020 at 9:07 PM, jlpservicesinc said:

I priced out Milbank one that was a 400amp with disconnects inside the box and it was 3500.00 and change. 

that seems high to me, what was the price for separate meter and disconnect?

[jlpservicesinc]

Steve, I thought the meter socket and disconnect was going to be about 1500.00.. 

I was shocked at the price. 

Milbank U6584   (new number),  Old number U4031

I looked at the metersocket and it's reasonable even with a bypass.   I think the diconnect alone is about 1000.00 on ebay.

If you can find the items for less than half I can afford it..  Again I figured about 1500.. 


 

Single Throw Safety Switch, Fusible Disconnect, 3-Pole, 240 Vac, NEMA 3R Enclosure, 400A

MFR #: D325NTR

SKU: 93198264

 

$3,388.60/ EA

 

Description:
MILB U4031-O-2/150 MET SKT

Technical Description:
Ringless Type; 6 AWG to 350 kcmil (Line), 1 AWG to 300 kcmil (Load) Wire Size; Powder Coated G90 Galvanized Steel Enclosure Material; UL Approval; 240 VAC at 60 Hz Voltage Rating; Surface Mounting; NEMA 3R Enclosure; 320 Ampere Current Rating

UPC: 78457236828

Part Number: U4031-O-2/150

Manufacturer: MILBANK 

 

Retail Price:  $5,793.90 / ea
Your Price:  $3,145.00 / ea

[jlpservicesinc]

So I found the for 900.00 and a 1.5 hr drive 1 way.   New in box..  The fuses run about 125.00 per each. 

12 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Single Throw Safety Switch, Fusible Disconnect, 3-Pole, 240 Vac, NEMA 3R Enclosure, 400A

MFR #: D325NTR

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Got in a little bit on the door, then had to leave to go grab the SqD 400amp disconnect switch.  And turns out the door came in too. 

So, did one long journey and picked up both.. 163 miles round trip. 

 

[ThomasPowers]

You were wanting the door and had found a disconnect at a better price.  Long trip; but a WIN and you got to do it before the roads get bad making things an even longer trip!

[Deimos]

Electricity is so weird over there, when we get amps that high we use 400Vac and higher, and a disconnector/fuse box would only cost you about 600 Euro brand new.

[Frosty]

Jennifer: Like any of us you're designing in over kill because you're unsure, we all do it, no sweat. 

The physics of a square frame and sag goes something like this. All square sections are hinges and can move, sag in this case. To stop this you add a triangle, triangles can't hinge, one side is always in tension while the opposing side two are in compression. Triangles are very rigid.

A single tensioner from the top door hinge to the opposite bottom corner makes the entire door a series of triangles and rigid. Being in tension the stiffener can have hinged connections and serve without problem.

A diagonal member from the bottom hinge to the top far corner is a compressive member, hinged connections make it a wasted effort, just extra weight. Pushing against hinged connections like yours WILL cause them to pivot, think pushing a chain. Putting tension on the compressive member will cause buckling forces in the main door frame. 

I HIGHLY DISCOMMEND using the compressive rod. 

If you thread the tension rod a little extra on each end to accept a lock nut you can tension the door laying flat of the floor. Simply match the corner to corner measurements, tighten the lock nuts and you're done. Honest it won't move a bit, no sag. It's ot like it's an aluminum door with a steel tension rod you'd have to adjust with every temperature change. It's all steel right? It'll all expand and contract equally.

Beautiful shop, I'm suffering severe shop envy. It's almost worse than a place Deb and I visited a few summers ago garage saling. A beautiful place on 8 acres, 3 bdrm. house, horse barn and maybe an acre of fenced pasture, paved helicopter pad and 3 copter hangar. Only $365k!

The hangar was jaw dropping, every darned thing was shiny clean, floor to ceiling, lockable tool room, separate: machine shop, office, break room, bunk room w/ kitchen and full bath. , heat, water, sound system, separate aux nat gas, generator, out building. The HANGAR had anechoic paneling and a theater quality sound system, zero shadow lighting,. The main floor was large enough to park 3 Bell Rangers with room to move and work around them and a full hangar track crane. Just the hangar doors were a marvel, 3 individual horizontal track doors. 

I was ready to sell this house and move in!  Deb could have the house, I'd be happy to live in the hangar with all my toys close by and room to spare for a go cart track. 

I've never seen such an over the top shop but the owner had a VERY successful helicopter service he was moving to the lower 48. Part of the contract was to buy him out of his property and business in Alaska so that property had to go and fast. 

I was surprised how long it was on the market, almost two weeks before an air taxi bought it and the property next to it so they had enough for an air strip. Turned out the seller owned a little better than un subdivided 90 acres. That 8 acres was being offered as one parcel, ready to subdivide if necessary to make it more sellable. He was in a hurry. 

Sorry for the long ramble but I can't look at pics of your without remembering the other. Either one makes me wish I were 30 years younger with your go gettum.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Thomas was a win all the way around.. 

Deimos,  Electric is weird here as is electrical codes..  For a good portion of residential its 240Volts 200amp 60hz. 

For special electrical needs there is 277v, 460V but all these are usually have an upcharge per month.  The 460 usually is 3phase and costs a small fortune..  One can purchase a step up transformer to change the voltage, but not the 1phase to 3phase.  For that an RPC or VFD is used. 

Frosty,  I do over engineer everything..   I'd rather put more in vs not enough.   I hate doing things twice.  

Thanks for the great hinge info..   And the thoughts behind it and triangles.   I think the info I read was on bridge design and compression..  

I only put the 1 brace rod. 

I do understand seeing that 1 magical shop/ area.   I ventured into a place that could have been my dream home.. 

I have a thing for colonial homes and shops.. 

The steel building is very far from that ideal, but it will be warm and shiny at least for a year. 

This week I get the rear wall/doors up, the front work door and the front will be sheathed. 

Big tadoo's. 

[George N. M.]

Jennifer:  Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[jlpservicesinc]

George, right on..  I am all for it.  

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

My wife always accuses me of over building. If 2 nails will hold it 4 will be better.

[jlpservicesinc]

for sure.. I even go one further with screws..   LOL..  

The doors are all cut and fitted. The corners are all welded..  then I bolt on angle iron brackets with 4, 1/2" bolts. 

All the center pieces are held on with 10, 1/2" bolts and 2 plates each side of the purlin. 

I then clean everything and spray cold galvanizing compound on ever cut or weld..  

I'd guess each door as it sits now is between 80 and 125lbs.