Identify wrought iron

[Zeroclick]

So I have been working this scrap metal it is rebar that was in a WW2 tank factory and when I was working it is noticed an odd texture under a top layer of metal. I have not worked with wrought or seen it so wondered what people thought about this.

Thanks,

Zeroclick 

[Daswulf]

Take a little bit of a longer piece and cut half way through it about 2 inches from an end then chuck that in a vise and bend it over.  Wrought iron should bend and tear like a fibrous structure instead of breaking clean. I'm not sure if all wrought iron is like that but that's what I have seen it do. 

[Zeroclick]

Cool I will give it a try when I get back in the forge. I mean from what I read about rebar it would seem odd for it to be wrought. But with it being war time I thought it may have been takenfor the effort.

[ThomasPowers]

Yes the "greenstick" fracture is a common method of identifying wrought iron as is the spark test.  However there are several things that can give a spark that resembles Wrought Iron but nothing else that does the same greenstick fracture!

[Wroughton]

It's wrought. I believe I can see the grain. 

[templehound]

1 hour ago, Wroughton said:

It's wrought. I believe I can see the grain. 

Really?...You must have some X-Men like microscopic sight.

[gote]

2 hours ago, templehound said:

Really?...You must have some X-Men like microscopic sight.

When wrought iron rusts, the different layers rust differently fast so the layered structure may show up on the surface. It can be quite visible even without x-ray sight. They are also far from microscopic. I have the same impression as Wroughton.

[templehound]

4 hours ago, gote said:

When wrought iron rusts, the different layers rust differently fast so the layered structure may show up on the surface. It can be quite visible even without x-ray sight. They are also far from microscopic. I have the same impression as Wroughton.

Well,.... but what has this to do with the grain?

That is a chemical reaction and interpreted view on the matrix what You point out.

If You have steel/iron  and it has a good surface,maybe with bare eyes You are able to see the matrix and groups and bunches(!) of carbides , but You cant see the grain.

Size and form of the grain is something about micro(!) structure of steel/iron which needs metallographic amount of depiction and view.

With all due respect, but I "guess" You must have absolutely no basic knowledge about steel/iron if You say looking at the grain on wrought iron is far from microscopic...... X-rays?(LOL)

There are countless sources in the internet where You can educate yourself.Having an impression of something is not the same a having knowledge of something, 

If you like, you can take a look here and go to the chapter "Measuring grain size" it is explained there pretty good

http://www.metallography.com/dist.htm

.....No offence, Sir, just my honest thoughts and opinion.....

 

 

 

[Judson Yaggy]

The longitudinal striations, clearly visible in the photo, are often but not always indicative of wrought iron.  It could just be abrasion or funny corrosion from the concrete.  Those striations are what most of the other posters are referring to when they say "grain".  When talking about the antique material of wrought iron this is correct terminology, and it is visible to the naked eye.  "Grain" in modern steels is generally not.  

I have taken (and passed!) college level material science classes AND forged a lot of wrought iron over the last 25 years, and that looks like it could be wrought to me.

Ok, break time is over, back to the forge.

[SmoothBore]

1 hour ago, templehound said:

With all due respect, but I "guess" You must have absolutely no basic knowledge about steel/iron if You say looking at the grain on wrought iron is far from microscopic...... X-rays?(LOL)

.....No offence, Sir, just my honest thoughts and opinion.....

Spoken like a true "textbook warrior", ... making the assumption that EVERY reference, ... spoken in every language, ... can only be interpreted in THEIR OWN vernacular.

While I on the other hand, had no problem differentiating the use of the word "grain" in reference to a texture that resembles weathered wood, ... from one about molecular strings and cross linking, ... or one about corn and wheat.

I think we are best served, when we view these forums as a general exchange of knowledge, ... rather than as a competition.

For, in truth, ... none of us has ALL the answers.

 

[templehound]

4 minutes ago, Judson Yaggy said:

The longitudinal striations, clearly visible in the photo, are often but not always indicative of wrought iron.  But it could just be abrasion or funny corrosion from the concrete.  Those striations are what most of the other posters are referring to when they say "grain".  When talking about the antique material of wrought iron this is correct terminology, and it is visible to the naked eye.  "Grain" in modern steels is generally not.  

I have taken (and passed!) college level material science classes AND forged a lot of wrought iron over the last 25 years, and that looks like it could be wrought to me.

....  I respect everyone passed anything.

It seems it is a linguistic difference between talking the "saying" and correct metallurgical terminology........the clearly longitudinal stirations are not the grain.....If I rely on German specific, correct terminology it is incorrect....and what is more worth remembering the "saying" or the science?

Right, in "modern" steels You cant see the grain with bare eyes, as You confirmed......and how old has material or steel to be to be called antique?

take the tool steel 1.2442 (115W8) this alloy is at least 120 years old , it is still in use today... if we have a piece of it from that time, lets say it is antique....if we have a recent made piece of it lets say  it is modern? same alloy, same steel, different times....grain is grain....dosent matter what age and time.

steel is steel as wrought iron is wrought iron.

Only aspect is, wrought iron is today not made anymore(as far as I know) but it is not about how steel is made, it ius about grain.

But it is of course possible to make wrought iron today, this should look like the antique one. so the recent(modern)made wrought iron will show no grain structure to the bare eye but longitudinal stirations which are than refering to the saying, are visible grain structure.

this makes no sense to me, Sir.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, SmoothBore said:

Spoken like a true "textbook warrior", ... making the assumption that EVERY reference, ... spoken in every language, ... can only be interpreted in THEIR OWN vernacular.

While I on the other hand, had no problem differentiating the use of the word "grain" in reference to a texture that resembles weathered wood, ... from one about molecular strings and cross linking, ... or one about corn and wheat.

I think we are best served, when we view these forums as a general exchange of knowledge, ... rather than as a competition.

For, in truth, ... none of us has ALL the answers.

 

Thanks for Your opinion, I appreciate honesty.

I thought we are talking about steel or iron, a conversation that needs some accuracy.....as You wish, lets talk about corn, wood and wheat and maybe we learn something about steel today.

sincerly Yours

Textbook warrior

 

[ThomasPowers]

I think we should just stick with "longitudinal striations" referencing the rust patterns found on real wrought iron. They are generally fairly specific to the material though I have run across a few pieces of "modern" steel that have had "faked" ones due to wear in specific instances. I think "grain" has been used as a well rusted piece of wrought iron often looks like the grain of a weather piece of wood; perhaps "wood grain" would help differentiate; but since grain has a metallurgical use already overloading the term might best be avoided.

(I'm on page 91 of "William Kelly: A True History of the So Called Bessemer Process", John Boucher, 1924.  Not a work of much interest to blacksmiths so far; but a window on the sniping and backbiting and possible industrial espionage of the times.  An interesting contrast to the section on the Bessemer process in "Man Machines and Modern Times")

[SReynolds]

I'm informed there are several classifications of wrought.  In order to work it proper, you must identity it first. So I'm  told. Which leads to further questions.

I have some wrought and do not remember how to classify it. When i use it (forge it) this stuff crumbles apart like kiln dried pottery.  Wondering what folks see in this and again, infirmed i must first identify the classification first in order to work it properly. 

I love 1020 and buy it new. Thus i know what it is and how it reacts.  Like to better understand wrought but it simply dont like to be forged. 

[SLAG]

A homonym is defined as a word that has two or more different meanings. That word has the same spelling and pronunciation for both separate meanings.

"Grain" has at least two of such meanings. And they are both correct English usage.

One usage of "grain" is for macroscopic determinations. That is determinations done by eye, where no microscopes are needed.

For example, wood grain and the grain usually seen in samples of wrought iron.

The second meaning is used in describing microscopic metallurgical grain. This would be at the atomic level of resolution. Such grain can, generally, only be seen using a transmission electron microscope.

They are two different "species" of grain. Both usage is correct.

I think I can guess the probable origin of the confusion (above). The English language has thousands of homonyms. And that is one of the reasons that there so many puns that can be made. English speakers are comfortable with words that have multiple meanings.

In contradistinction, the German language has very few homonyms.They are very rare.

Mr. T. Hound has indicated, in several previous posts, that he is / or is very familiar with German, and that may be where the confusion lies.

I suggest that a spark test would make for a more confident finding that the iron specimen is wrought or not (LOL)

Just my two cents.

SLAG.

Edited May 17, 2017 by SLAG
Correcting dreadful penmanship.

[Zeroclick]

Thank you I will do a spark test on it and post results.

[gote]

3 hours ago, templehound said:

With all due respect, but I "guess" You must have absolutely no basic knowledge about steel/iron if You say looking at the grain on wrought iron is far from microscopic...... X-rays?(LOL)

I think you should abstain from making public statements about other persons qualifications. It is not only common courtesy. It is also so humiliating to find that one has misunderstood the language.

[templehound]

1 minute ago, gote said:

I think you should abstain from making public statements about other persons qualifications. It is not only common courtesy. It is also so humiliating to find that one has misunderstood the language.

Yes, You are right.

It was not my intension to do this.

Please accept my apologies Mr. gote.

 

[gote]

accepted

[arkie]

Some comparisons of wrought iron and mild steel.  The WI has striations on the weathered surface and fibrous texture on the split sample.  The mild steel has a fine crystalline structure, not fibrous.

 

 

[Wroughton]

Wow! Saucy smiths are we! I can indeed spot the "grain". No Xray eyes needed. After a short amount (a ton or two), you learn to spot the difference between a directional blemish that may suggest wrought fibres and the real thing.  Not all wrought is exposed by a spark test. Acid etch end "grain" and sides.

 

[ThomasPowers]

The higher the grade the wrought iron the more difficult it is to tell by rust striations; very high grade wrought iron can have over 250000 slag spicules per each cross sectional inch---a bit fine for eyeballing!  (number from "Wrought Iron Its Manufacture, Characteristics and Applications"  James Aston and Edward Story)

[Wroughton]

7 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

The higher the grade the wrought iron the more difficult it is to tell by rust striations; very high grade wrought iron can have over 250000 slag spicules per each cross sectional inch---a bit fine for eyeballing!  (number from "Wrought Iron Its Manufacture, Characteristics and Applications"  James Aston and Edward Story)

And that's when it hits the acid bath and a little magnification. However,  I didn't need it for the original picture.  

I do have some bridge material that I have to test that I've wondered about for a while. You've inspired me to take a look. 

[ThomasPowers]

I've run across a few pieces where they have bushelled some steel in with the wrought iron and have both types of break in the same spot on a piece. I try to have one of those as a show&tell piece as the greenstick and "salt grain" breaks can be shown side by side.

[Thief_Of_Navarre]

5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

The higher the grade the wrought iron the more difficult it is to tell by rust striations; very high grade wrought iron can have over 250000 slag spicules per each cross sectional inch---a bit fine for eyeballing!  (number from "Wrought Iron Its Manufacture, Characteristics and Applications"  James Aston and Edward Story)

Funny you should say that. I pulled some bars of wrought from an old gutted stable block door and they looked so smooth and uniform I assumed them to be mild steel. After I put them in the forge and had one delaminate on me while punching I soon realised I had 60-70lbs of WI. I'm saving it for when I'm a bit more competent to make pretty things with!

Edited May 18, 2017 by Thief_Of_Navarre
S**ing autocorrect

[jlpservicesinc]

17 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

The higher the grade the wrought iron the more difficult it is to tell by rust striations; very high grade wrought iron can have over 250000 slag spicules per each cross sectional inch---a bit fine for eyeballing!  (number from "Wrought Iron Its Manufacture, Characteristics and Applications"  James Aston and Edward Story)

This book is a wonderful read..  I still groove on the old books so much more than the newer..  Of course when it comes to metalurgy newer books address information differently..   Maybe that is why I like the older books better.. 

any of the steels will pit with rust.. Also they will if adhered or placed inside wood (nails, pintels.. etc, etc) will take on a grained appearance as the steel  has rusted as exposed to the grain of the wood..