AdamG Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Hi all, I just acquired a brand new anvil that's a bit of a one-off. Before I mention its brand etc, I wanted to ask about hardness and hammer marks on a new anvil face. This anvil was freshly machined at the foundry, apparently from the same type of steel used in railroad wheels (I don't know the recipe). It still has the swirly machining marks and hasn't been dressed yet I will do that as soon as I build a stump/stand. But in testing the rebound, I'm seeing hammer marks left in the surface of the anvil. I haven't had time to look at the depth, or to see whether the depressions are deeper than the machining marks, but I'm surprised that there's any dent from a light (2 lb) machinist hammer, swung lightly to test ring and rebound. I guess my question is whether old anvils with old steels generally act like this. I know most newer anvils with modern high hardness steels should just rebound all the energy and not really dent (unless it's a severe blow). Just doing a gut check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Sounds like it wasn't hardened. Or not a good steel for an anvil. ( at least for a durable one). I don't know what type of steel rr wheels are made of but either of those would be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Ditto on how was it heat treated????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 1 hour ago, AdamG said: anvil that's a bit of a one-off First question is just how far off is this one-off anvil? Doesn't sound right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Are those cutter marks or grind marks? If they're mill cutter marks it hasn't been hardened, even tungsten carbide bits won't successfully cut hardened steel. Sure they'll cut but the carbides degrade quickly chatters and makes a chattery, scratchy, cruddy finish. This is really obvious. RR wheels are 2 part the wheel itself is one piece, forged and machined to press fit the axle. (visualize a wheel rim on a car.) Two wheel/axle sets are mounted in a truck which has it's own suspension and in some cases rests on a pivot and plate like a 5th wheel on a semi tractor. The tire is a band that furnishes the contact wear surface with the rail. The tire is higher carbon steel that is hardened and tempered for service on cars. They used to be rolled and welded then sweated to the wheel in an interference fit. It's hardened no only to resist wear but to distribute the force of the train's weight more evenly to the softer wheel, It'd be less confusing if they called wheels, rims but they don't. They use the term wheel for the whole assembly like on our autos but the rims parts are called wheels too. Sometimes industrial terminologies gives me a headache. A few years ago a tire failed on a passenger train and derailed it. The tire broke, speared into the ties breaking gauge derailing the next couple cars till the train hit an overpass. Once the broken tire came off the wheel and speared into the ground the other end speared up through the floor of the car and killed a couple people directly. On closer inspection more tires were found to be failing in a similar manner on cars all over the nation so a different method of tiring RR wheels" was made industry standard and much better inspection instruments and techniques was instituted. I don't know how the wheel is heat treated though and don't know composition more than very generally. There have been a couple interesting Discovery Channel programs, "Engineering disasters" that have dealt with this and other RR disasters, there is also good info online. Anyway, if the surface was machined rather than ground it hasn't been hardened and may not be hardenable. If dropping a ball bearing or tapping it with a ball pein dents it, they either just failed to heat treat, or it's a fraud. It could be a mistake maybe poor quality control but I'd send it back for replacement or get my money back. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 ask the grade of steel, get the numbers, is there somewhere near with a hardness tester what figures did they quote for hardness it could be a one off because it was as soft as a chinese ASO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamG Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Thanks, all. I don't think it's a fraud because I trust the maker. It was heavily discounted as part of R&D and I may have another way to solve this with the maker, so I'm not mad at this point but I am surprised about the characteristics of the metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 That's good to hear. If you knew it was R&D when you got into it then you're part of the test program. Are they close enough to take it back and show them? Consider the original use for the steel, the wheel/rim wasn't supposed to be or get hard it's supposed to be tough and resist deflection. The tire on the other hand needs to be hard and reasonably rigid without work hardening. Those are two different purposes and I seriously doubt they use the same steel for both. If the guys making the anvils tested the tire and used the rim section their heat treat criteria could be WAY off. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Not much to add really, but If this is as you say straight from the foundry, then it probably has not received the heat treatment suitable for purpose. Many of the new anvils produced have their table area induction or otherwise surface hardened to some depth. There may also be a possibility that it will work harden as you continue to use it, depending on the steel being used. If its possible, try to get the steel grade analysis and take appropriate action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Some of those steels in the RR industry are a manganese steel that will work harden. Try taking a flat faced hammer and start lightly peening the area of the hammer mark, as it works down increase the force. The rebound should increase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Other side of the coin is how hard is the hammer? I've had Peddinghaus hammers that were scary hard and would ding even the hardest of anvils. I've backed off the temper on them over the years as I've re-handled them. Blanchard grinding marks could look like milling marks to folks with limited machining experiences. My Rat Hole anvil is very hard and blanchard ground, after 3 years of good use it still shows faint grinding marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamG Posted June 7, 2016 Author Share Posted June 7, 2016 One way or another, I can't wait to mash some hot steel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 That's the goal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Going to follow this thread as the old mouse Hole I bought last month seems to have a soft face as well, shows hammer dents from just rebound testing like yours. I have a 1" ball bearing ordered to try and measure rebound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 should safely be able to test rebound with a hammer as well other then a ball bearing. you'll be "hammering" on it so...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, Daswulf said: should safely be able to test rebound with a hammer as well other then a ball bearing. you'll be "hammering" on it so...... I wanted to use a ball bearing so I can compare with the chart over at Anvilfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daswulf Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 ok. but I tell ya. if you miss with any hammer on my trenton, better not have your face in the way. just saying hammers will tell ya if it's hard or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Manufacturing variability was much greater for earlier anvils combined with a longer life to undergo a structure fire and become soft... I have a hammer that's dead soft, lynch collection french cross peen probably from a burned out factory, I gently suggest that new students who have hammer control issues use it as it's much easier to dress the hammer than the anvil's face...Still works fine as I will "borrow" it and clean up a workpiece they are having trouble with. I do make them use a different one when using the hardy as I prefer to dress the hardy than have deep slices in the soft faced hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Hello Thomas. We went through Socorro on Memorial day and had breakfast at el Camino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Das I'm with you why mess with a ball bearing when you are going to forge with a hammer. Would take a while to forge if we where just dropping ball bearings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 of course a ball bearing will give you an objective value that you can compare others to rather than the subjective hammer test. Matto; would you find a difference in me saying I'd give you some money for your anvil and me saying I'd give you US$50000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 A hammer requires more experience to interpret the results than a ball bearing. I don't know why everybody seems to think a BIG bearing is a good thing unless it's easier to see. I have a 1/2" bearing and think it's too heavy if I'm carrying it around very long. Another thought about using great big bearings, if you drop a 1" bearing from a ways it will dent a cast iron ASO and you may end up trying to talk your way out of buying it after damaging it. I'd have to drop a 1/2" bearing from a ways to crack my coffee mug. % of rebound works out the same either way. A little hammer is nice once you have enough practice to evaluate with it. They're much faster than bearings and I've never had to chase one under a bench because a bit of grit deflected it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matto Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Thomas I understand the point of the ball bearing test and know it works. I am not saying it doesn't. My reply was just stating that I prefer to test with a hammer for that is what I use to forge and I usually always have a hammer in my truck or around me and not a 1" ball bearing. Thomas would you say that a one inch ball bearing is going to react different from a 12" drop than dropping a 2lb hammer from12"? You can't use well it depends on where you are from do to the fact you know where I am from but it could be do to the fact we are more humid. Bottom line is how you test it is how you test it!! Like you will only pay what you are willing to pay no matter where you are from. And you are only going to take what you are will ing to take no matter where you are from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 If you are holding the hammer handle in your hand YES! Very hard to factor out the handle and arm effects! Also easier to walk around with a 1/2" ball bearing than a hammer if you are at an auction or estate sale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamG Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 Yeah. My buddy gave me an industrial ball bearing that must be 2.5" in diameter... I daren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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