fitting hardy shaft

[dickb]

The hardy hole on my anvil is about 3/4 inch square.

I prefer to have the shaft sticking out below the anvil, particularly with a Brian Brazeal hot cut hardy, so I can knock it out easy.

So what I propose to do is slit the stock near where I want the shaft to lock into the hardy and then forge a wedge to fit the slit.

Then I can hammer the wedge which is cold into the slit which is hot.

This should result in a shaft that drops into the hardy up to the expanded part near the wedge and then hammer it in letting the edges or the hardy hole create as shoulder on the shaft.

This is theory, hoping to save some hammering fitting the shaft to the hardy hole.

Comments would be appreciated

[VaughnT]

Well, it really depends on what you're making, I guess.  Slitting the shaft and then spreading it out with a drift (your wedge) will certainly work to spread some of the metal out towards the sides.  But then, so would upsetting the shaft in that area.

Or, you could use squished tubing.  Or, you could taper a bit of 1" stock and force it into the hardy, letting the hole swage the thick stock to shape...

[ThomasPowers]

How big is what you are starting with and what tooling do you have access to.  I could forge down a hardy stem faster than I could slit it.  

I use my large screw press to turn top swages into bottom swages for my big anvil; it does a great job of making such nice flat parallel sides out of the variously shaped swage handle ends.

[Frank Turley]

I don't get it. However, the slot and wedge idea is not new but used in a different manner. The granite tool sharpener's stake served as a sort of small, canted anvil face for working on granite chisels. Its shank was slotted to wedge against the anvil heel in order to prevent it from bouncing around with repeated use. There is usually a little slop in a hardy shank, so the wedge sucked it tight.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Dickb

I have posted this before.. Just form a hoop and weld it to the bottom .. Been using this system for years ( works well)

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[gote]

I use square tubing that is slightly oversize and bang it hot down into the hardy hole. The result is a piece that will drop into the hole with a tight fit but can be lifted out (no knocking). The tube is then cut flush with the face of the anvil and welded to the hardy. The good news is that a tube can be driven down with little effort and without risking to pop off the heel of a London pattern anvil. The bad news is that the hardy hole needs to have a very slight taper.

I like this method so much that I would taper the hole if there were no taper. By taper I mean 1/1000 or thereabouts.

My thinking is that I want the hardy, or whatever tool I use, to be supported by the face of the anvil and located by the hardy hole. I do not want to wedge the tool into the hole.   

[arftist]

I don't get it either.

Buy some 3/4" square bar.

Taper it to fit.

Seat it super hot so as not to wedge off the end of the anvil.

Not a big deal at all.

[dickb]

Must be some misunderstanding, My intent is to form the shoulders that will bear down on the face of the anvil by expanding a section of the shaft with a wedge and then when fully hot, drive the shaft into the hardy, Hopefully the expanded section will conform to the hardy hole and force excess material to form the shoulder.

No power tools, welders, just hammers, punches, punches, drifts, and a good hundred year old Canady Otto blower. I figured it would be easier expanding a small section than tapering a long and oversized shaft.

Dickb 

[Frosty]

Sounds like you're talking about forming the shoulder where the hardy will stop against the anvil's face. Start with larger stock than will fit the hardy hole, use a butcher to define the shoulder draw the shank down. When the shank will slip into the hardy hole get your new bottom tool bright yellow hot, drop it into the hardy hole and drive it down with a sledge hammer. A few blows should be plenty to match it to the anvils face around the hardy hole. IF it doesn't form a shoulder the blank was NOT hot enough do NOT keep hitting it, take it back to the fire and get it good, HOT and drive it down again.

Once you have the shoulder forged, forge your hardy.

Here's the order:

Define shoulder with a Butcher.

Draw shank to size.

Get it screaming yellow hot, drop it in the hardy hole and set the shoulder.

Forge the BOTTOM tool: Hardy, butcher, etc.

What's a "Butcher" you ask? It's a single bevel chisel with a rounded edge in the case of defining or setting shoulders. A butcher will cut like a chisel but one side is square to the stock and the displaced material is pushed the other direction. Picture a blunt V with one side vertical.

Frosty The Lucky.

[51 Papy]

Frosty

I may need a picture...sorry.  Is this like a wood chisel with a much more acute bevel and a v shaped?  I googled it and went to a forge site ( don't want to get into trouble). That just confused me more.

Papy

[John McPherson]

Here is a welded butcher from Dave Gaddis. Top and bottom sharpened on one side only, like a wood chisel.

Also, the older top tools used for tenon making. Could not find a good tutorial off the cuff, will keep looking.

[51 Papy]

Thanks John

It makes sense now that I see the picture.

Papy

[Francis Trez Cole]

start out with larger stock than you harder hole. Taper it and drive it into the harder hole this will set the shoulders.  The point of a brazeal hot cut is to wedge into the hardie hole So it is snug and tapping the side front to back side to side it loosens it up and comes right out. 

[arftist]

On 5/27/2016 at 10:41 AM, dickb said:

Must be some misunderstanding, My intent is to form the shoulders that will bear down on the face of the anvil by expanding a section of the shaft with a wedge and then when fully hot, drive the shaft into the hardy, Hopefully the expanded section will conform to the hardy hole and force excess material to form the shoulder.

No power tools, welders, just hammers, punches, punches, drifts, and a good hundred year old Canady Otto blower. I figured it would be easier expanding a small section than tapering a long and oversized shaft.

Dickb 

Nope.

It is way easier to draw out (make thinner) than to make thicker (so much so that it is called "upsetting".

Thickening metal can get very upsetting.

Start with stock large enough to provide shoulders as is. 

[SmoothBore]

Fortunately for us as a species, people are always thinking of new ways to do things.

And when you're developing new technology, it's essential that you think "outside the box".

But when you are not developing something that is essentially "new", it's also essential to reign in your ego, and allow yourself to learn from the preponderance of experience that already exists.

In theory, "conventional wisdom" has many pitfalls, ... but in practice, "reinventing the wheel" rarely yields improved results.

 

As a young man, I was as arrogant as they come, ... in my high regard for "my own" ideas and designs.

Some might contend that is still the case.  

 

But the passage of a half-century of hands on experience, has done much to enhance my respect for the practices of those who have gone before me.

I am by no means a Luddite, but do view arbitrary changes, with a healthy degree of skepticism.

 

If your primary goal is to massage your ego, ... then by all means, ... invent unique, personalized techniques, as a means to that end.

Otherwise, what's the point in seeking a "new" solution, to a problem that's been solved for centuries ?

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Also if you are fairly new to the craft you may not be aware of the reasons something tends to be done a certain way.  Sometimes they do not hold anymore---like workarounds for punching and drifting wrought iron are generally not needed for using mild steel, (on the other hand we tend to use workarounds to forge welding mild steel where it was the obvious choice for wrought iron...)

So too when someone reviews a product I tend to look for their experience level:  "This is a great forge design, I've used it for an hour and really like it though I have never used a forge before"    vs  "I've been building forges for over 30 years now and I think this design it one of my better ones"   Which one was really worth the bits to read?  (Or even worse; "I've copied a terrible design off the internet/youtube/satellite mind control lasers, spent a lot of time and money make it worse and am unhappy with it's performance and want *YOU* to fix it for me!"

[Mark Ling]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

Also if you are fairly new to the craft you may not be aware of the reasons something tends to be done a certain way

when I first started out, I didn't understand why people made leafs out of square/round stock, because I thought it would be much easier to make it out of flat stock. I tried it out and found out why. Now with large leaves that may be easier but it wasn't with the smaller ones.

                                                                                                                  Littleblacksmith

[tdriack]

Jim - is that one hardy the crown of a piston??? If so- That's a great idea - I may have to look around some junk piles and make one!

 

[John McPherson]

Knew it was out there somewhere. Found a tutorial on the Florida website.

[rockstar.esq]

One neat little nugget of knowledge hidden in John's photo is the reason the butcher is crescent shaped.  If it were flat, the sides at a right angles to the working face would swell right where you're trying to define a shoulder.  The crescent forces the corners in first because they're the only parts touching, and greater force is applied with those first blows. As an added bonus, you can use the cut corner as a reference point on the next side to keep your shoulder perpendicular to the shaft.

 

[John B]

3 hours ago, rockstar.esq said:

One neat little nugget of knowledge hidden in John's photo is the reason the butcher is crescent shaped.  If it were flat, the sides at a right angles to the working face would swell right where you're trying to define a shoulder.  The crescent forces the corners in first because they're the only parts touching, and greater force is applied with those first blows. As an added bonus, you can use the cut corner as a reference point on the next side to keep your shoulder perpendicular to the shaft.

 

These pics may help to illustrate further the use of the original 3 tools shown, The square faced set hammer being used to finish the tenon/shank and shoulders prior to final fitting into its receiver (in your case the Hardie hole, otherwise a monkey tool)

Notch all way round

 

 

Use side set to start to determine the shoulder 

Repeat on all sides on a squar'ish corner (not too sharp, if you dont have a good square corner on your anvil, use a piece of square stock or make a block for the hardie hole)

Block here has varies degrees of edge profiles with very small to larger radii to be used as required.

Set hammer is then used to make parallel the tenon as in this picture, as you are making a much larger tenon, you may not need a set hammer, but I include this to clarify the tools illustrated.

 

Hope this is of some use to some who may not be familiar with the tooling and how it is used.

[51 Papy]

Thanks John

That made it crystal clear.  A person could spend a couple of years just building tools and still not have just what they needed.  Thanks to all for the education.

Papy

[ThomasPowers]

That's why some of us suggest only building the tools required for the job at hand; you'll soon have a nice set of most commonly used tools and start making them to suit your methods and likes...

[Francis Trez Cole]

there are many shapes of hot cuts. one is not better than the other whether its straight or curved they have no real advantage. the other style is one with a flat side like any other tool you can make the angle to fit your needs short or wide. The top tool John showed is called a set hammer. they come in real handy for making tenants.

[rockstar.esq]

John,  thank you for posting those pictures!  It helps a lot to see how it works.  The first time I saw a crescent shaped butcher, I mistakenly thought it was exclusively for working round stock.  I noticed that the crescent shaped butchers appeared regularly in my old blacksmithing books, but the straight ones weren't as common.  The curved cut off hardie like Francis posted got me thinking about how curved tooling applies to square stock.  After a while it occurred to me that making a tenon is all about hemming in the spread of the parent piece while you isolate the tenon material.