George Geist Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Americans and British are oftentimes separated by a common language. I've often heard Brits talk about using whale oil for tempering. Problem is true whale oil from whales has been outlawed for at least 100 years. Somebody found an old can someplace and tried to sell it on ebay. He got arrested by the FBI and it made for a heck of an expensive mess. It's also pretty much banned internationally as well which leads me to this question. Research has shown that it is not possible for them to be using real whale oil so what is it that they use and hang that name on? George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 why use oil to temper at all ? just bake it in the oven and we are good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted March 13, 2014 Author Share Posted March 13, 2014 why use oil to temper at all ? just bake it in the oven and we are good Depends on the steel. Some are oil hardening. Some are air hardening. Some just water or brine will do the job. Just depends what you got. Any British out there that can answer what's the stuff they call whale oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 why use oil to temper at all ? just bake it in the oven and we are good He means hardening. It was not uncommon at one time to describe the entire heat treating process as tempering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Hardening and tempering are two different operations. Using correct terms assists us in getting information. Blacksmiths used to have to make their own steel too, and shoe horses. No clue about UK laws about whale oil, they have diffferent laws than the USA, and our FBI has no authority there. Japan still has a yearly whale harvest, so maybe there is a connection there? or maybe someone misused the term whale just as you did with tempering? After all they still refer to fries as chips. So maybe the term whale oil is just an example of misuse of terms, which does tend to be confusing. It is a good question though. You have me interesed in finding out, which is why I read this thread in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Depends on the steel. Some are oil hardening. Some are air hardening. Some just water or brine will do the job. Just depends what you got. Any British out there that can answer what's the stuff they call whale oil? Not sure where you are getting your info. At least 4 countries still harvest whales, and whaling in general was still practiced until 1986 http://iwc.int/commercial. The last whaler Set out from New Bedford Mass in 1927. Pretty sure they sold their oil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whaling_in_the_United_States The Endangered Species Act made the sale of oil from endangered whales illegal in this country in 1973. Not all whale species are on the Endangered Species act, by any means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Species_Act Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Well as early as the iron age blacksmiths usually bought their iron; I believe there is an example of a smith making his own iron in a remote farm in scandanavia and at L'anse aux meadows... but they are more the exceptions to prove the rule Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 So let me get this right: If something is illegal.....no one can have it; but then there are drugs, illegal weapons..etc aren't there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Whale oil was if I remember correctly from mainly sperm whales, their blubber rendered down at dockside, in the 1800's there were 55 whaling ships working out of Whitby, harvesting whales, polar bears and seals from the Greenland area, strong links were formed during these times and Anchorage in Alaska is twinned with Whitby Sperm whale oil was the preferred oil for lighting, burning more clearly and brightly and with less odour than other similar oils, which is probably why it was favoured as a quenching medium Whale oil was replaced by other oil products, specifically made for the purpose, when whaling became outlawed, there were stocks of it still available if you knew where to go for it.These were in sealed barrels from pre outlawed days, probably all gone now I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjh66 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 From my limited understanding "whale oil" has a very high flash point. I have used what I was told was whale oil once. It was at a place that had it from about 50 yrs ago. It was very fine, smooth, and oily ( I know that sounds funny). This same tub of oil has been used at this place for a long time from what we were told. You can purchase oils designed for heat treating purpose now without trying to find whale oil. I bout a 20 litre drum of heat treating oil for about AUD$ 70.00 which was lasting well until my son knocked the drum over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I think you will find that no modern british smiths use the term whale oil. but as it was only banned in 86 there is still some around from old works and it is often referenced. It is a strange substance , black and smelling like shrimp or calamari . it has medium to fast hardening speeds. It also easily forms an emulsion with atmospheric moisture and can cause trouble and boil on you if you don't cook the moisture out of it. it is quite a stable oil , and thats probably why its use continued....... and I do temper in an oil bath, heated by propane, (not whale I may add) tempering in circulating oil is an easy way of getting an even temper on a sword length object and allows for fast reheating of the steel for multiple straightening...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted March 14, 2014 Author Share Posted March 14, 2014 From my limited understanding "whale oil" has a very high flash point. I have used what I was told was whale oil once. It was at a place that had it from about 50 yrs ago. It was very fine, smooth, and oily ( I know that sounds funny). This same tub of oil has been used at this place for a long time from what we were told. You can purchase oils designed for heat treating purpose now without trying to find whale oil. I bout a 20 litre drum of heat treating oil for about AUD$ 70.00 which was lasting well until my son knocked the drum over. I think you will find that no modern british smiths use the term whale oil. but as it was only banned in 86 there is still some around from old works and it is often referenced. It is a strange substance , black and smelling like shrimp or calamari . it has medium to fast hardening speeds. It also easily forms an emulsion with atmospheric moisture and can cause trouble and boil on you if you don't cook the moisture out of it. it is quite a stable oil , and thats probably why its use continued....... and I do temper in an oil bath, heated by propane, (not whale I may add) tempering in circulating oil is an easy way of getting an even temper on a sword length object and allows for fast reheating of the steel for multiple straightening...... This stuff is interesting. I was thinking the term may have been applied to some kind of cooking type lard based or vegetable oils but if there is some real whale oil still being used that's really something. Tell you what I'll do. I'll try to find at least one you tube vid that I remember the term being used by a British smith while making a knife I think? Thanks guys, George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Whale oil was if I remember correctly from mainly sperm whales, their blubber rendered down at dockside, in the 1800's there were 55 whaling ships working out of Whitby, harvesting whales, polar bears and seals from the Greenland area, strong links were formed during these times and Anchorage in Alaska is twinned with Whitby Sperm whale oil was the preferred oil for lighting, burning more clearly and brightly and with less odour than other similar oils, which is probably why it was favoured as a quenching medium Whale oil was replaced by other oil products, specifically made for the purpose, when whaling became outlawed, there were stocks of it still available if you knew where to go for it.These were in sealed barrels from pre outlawed days, probably all gone now I would think. Sorry to get into this, but I am Norwegian and my uncles were whalers. In fact my great grandfather was the first whaleship captain to sail to Antarctica hunting whales. Norway still hunts whales, but only Minke which are not endangered. Anyway, all whales produce oil when their blubber is rendered. Sperm whales have the extra value of the spermaceti, valued for the reasons you mentioned, but also because it needed no rendering and was dipped out of the skull cavity as a finished product. The most sought after whale commercially was the Right whale, so named because it was the right whale to hunt, being that it floated after being killed, making the task of the hunters far easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 what fascinating information! arftist - i bet your uncles and grandfather had some hair raising tales to tell from their days in this work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 George there are a few old videos on you tube probably from back in the day where they refer to using whale oil and I am sure it probably was. Ofcourse some of these videos are probably pre 70's so makes sense they were still using it. Interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Geist Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 On 3/14/2014 at 5:57 AM, George Geist said: Tell you what I'll do. I'll try to find at least one you tube vid that I remember the term being used by a British smith while making a knife I think? Ok, There are six parts to this one but I'm only putting up part 5. On here we can hear him mention Whale Oil in passing although he's just using motor oil. He said it had a much higher flash point. There is another one I know of that the guy was actually using what he claimed to be Whale Oil. Not sure if I'll find it or not but I'll keep looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 My "Uncle Paul" who was a longtime family friend was a gunsmith, and I remember him having a small tin oil type can that was marked Sperm Oil. It was used for lubricating fine mechanisms like clocks, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 what fascinating information! arftist - i bet your uncles and grandfather had some hair raising tales to tell from their days in this work! Uncle Fritjof had his arm torn off at the shoulder on his first trip at age 16. He was pensioned for the rest of his life and lived past 90 years. The best tale though is of my father when he was a toddler. He was at the bow of my grandfather's eastern rigged dragger (essentially a mini beam trawler). A rouge wave washed over the bow and swept little Johan towards the stern. My grandfather reached out the pilot house door (pilot house is aft on an eastern rig) and grabbed him as he washed by. I could write a book. 1/3 of my male ancestors with my last name (going back 300 years) died at sea from drowning. Of course the oceans are much safer now, with Radar, sonar, radio, GPS, life rafts, survival suits, bilge alarms search and rescue jets and helicopters, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Flash point of whale oil is around 230 °C (446 °F Here's a list of natural oils with some higher flash points. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point Peanut oil Refined 450°F 232°C[1] Use peanut oil and toss in some sardines. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhitee93 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Uncle Fritjof had his arm torn off at the shoulder on his first trip at age 16. He was pensioned for the rest of his life and lived past 90 years. The best tale though is of my father when he was a toddler. He was at the bow of my grandfather's eastern rigged dragger (essentially a mini beam trawler). A rouge wave washed over the bow and swept little Johan towards the stern. My grandfather reached out the pilot house door (pilot house is aft on an eastern rig) and grabbed him as he washed by. I could write a book. 1/3 of my male ancestors with my last name (going back 300 years) died at sea from drowning. Of course the oceans are much safer now, with Radar, sonar, radio, GPS, life rafts, survival suits, bilge alarms search and rescue jets and helicopters, etc. I'd read that book! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Taylor Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 FYI, There are the remains of what was a whale oil bath at Cape Hart on Kangaroo Island where I live. There is a photo of it at https://collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/resource/B+46276. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 Welcome to IFI! If you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 There are two types of whale oil. Oil made from blubber and the more sought after and cleaner burning spermaceti oil made from an organ in a sperm whale's head. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Jojoba oil is a near substitute for sperm whale oil. I use it in gunsmithing, however the cost would make it prohibitive for quenching at $30 U.S. for 16 fluid ounces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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