Forging hooks with tongs

[Joel OF]

Hi, can anyone give me some pointers on how to curl small areas whilst using tongs?

 

Today I tried to make a bunch of simple hooks like in the pic. My best overall effort was the one on the left however I prefer the fishtail curl and general hook shape of the one on the right. Unfortunately with the one on the right I didn't square up the round bar enough so the twist is lame.

 

I reckon the hooks spent as much time on the floor as they did on the anvil as they kept coming out of my tongs, or if they weren't coming out of the tongs then I couldn't keep them in a firm enough position with my tong hand, (left), because as I was hammering with my right hand my left hand would be bouncing up in the air from the force...like a see-saw.

 

I could form the fishtail curl ok, but it was the main hook shape I struggled with. My process was - taper to form the nail, square up a small area for the twist, form that nail head right angle thing, fish tail curl, hook shape, twist.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! The round bar diameter was 8mm.

[JNewman]

You don't show us the most important thing. the tongs you were using.  If they were not either v or round bit bolt tongs that is your answer right there.  If you only have v round or flat with a groove down the middle I would form your curl first. Then you can  probably hold the curled end in your tongs for pointing.  If you are using flat jaw tongs. make some round or v bit tongs. 

[Joel OF]

Oops i didn't think to take a picture of them before i set off home. They're perfect for the job, they have round grooves up the middle & side.

[Chinobi]

I tend to reach for a pair of offset jaw tongs for projects that involve a hook like that, lets you grip on the straight part without the hook curve trying to occupy the same volume of space as the boss, and generally allows for some maneuvering.  they are typically V bit, but even with that its sometimes a pain to find a set that grips well enough and I too have spent a fair amount of time herding hot irons across the concrete :)

 

so looking forward to the forthcoming professional advice from others here too!

[Frosty]

This is mostly a practice, practice, practice issue. I use drive hooks as a beginner's first day project or if they have a knack a leaf finial wall hook. the sequence I use is do the body first, twist, then the drive hook, fold the drive hook, then the finial scroll and finish forming the coat hook and tweeking it to niceness. Hot brush and Wax, oil, etc. finish.

 

To demo hooks I'll use different types of tongs to show the tong's uses, advantages, disadvantages, etc. My preference is either flat bits with V groves longitudinal and lateral, or V bit bolt tongs with longitudinal and lateral V groves. On a camping trip I forged drive hooks with a camp fire, bolder, rock on a willow haft and split willow tongs. Did that on a bet with the other guys on the drill crew.

 

Heck, you don't even need tongs if your stock is long enough. Forge and form everything down to one point, I'd pick the drive point and forge that in two directions ad when all the twisting, bending, scrolling, etc. is finished cut the drive point with a chisel or just forge it really thin and bend it till it breaks and file to a finish. In this way you already have the drive point forged for the next hook, just do that one reversed on the bar.

 

Not using tongs when you can is always a better course, you have much better grip and feel for the work.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Note that for sq stock tongs will hold well the size where their jaws are parallel.  Otherwise you have a fulcrum point that the piece can flip around.  Why people have a gradation of tong sizes.

 

Learning how to hold the workpiece so it's flat on the anvil where you need to hit it is important too

[John B]

 

They're perfect for the job, they have round grooves up the middle & side.

 
May be perfect for part of the job, but not for all of the job, these are OK for the tapering and holding whilst holding for scrolling or bending into the U shape, as they grip in the central groove which should be set to hold the material in full contact.

As soon as you try to grip across the curve of the U they cease to be efficient, the workpiece will pivot as the jaws are only on a point contact, and the reins will be too open to grip comfortably.

It also depends quite importantly on your sequence of operations as to what type of tongs/tools are best for the process.

Then you have options, you need another set of tongs, so;

Forge a pair of tongs to suit and fit to the curve of the hooks you are making if the hooks are being pulled around a jig so they locate securely

Or you need what I term side bit tongs, or T shaped, or even farrier style disc end,that will grip across the U and are set to accommodate the bar size,

You could even use bolt tongs for 8mm shank

Whatever you do, use properly fitting tongs and it will make the task much simpler and safer.

[Rich Hale]

You say the stock jumps up when you hit it,,,that means it is not hot enough or it would not be able to do that...Tong size is key,,has to match stock. AS yoiu develop these skill a heavier stock will hold heat longer and you can work longer. half inch minimum...three quarter even better,,,and like said above use a p;iece long enough so you can work without tongs...You can do wot I call a dry run to get all the moves down. with the forge off put stock in,,have hammer in hand,,remove stock and place over the anvil where you will forge,,,tap only and move stock like it was hot....

And you can learn any of this in a lot less hours if you see it done. Join a group or attend a clinic etc...

[Rich Hale]

Also look up scrolling tongs.

[Marksnagel]

By your description of the material jumping around a lot, I tend to think that you are not getting your material hot enough which would cause it to jump off the anvil rather than move under your hammer blows. Not enough heat will also cause you to strike harder which will make it jump even more. 

If it is hot enough, it should not be trying to rebound after each hammer blow. 

 

 

Or not.  :)

 

Mark <><

 

Just read Rich's post about the heat after I posted this. So there are two who think this adds to your difficulty.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Marksnagel

[JNewman]

When holding the steel in the tongs It should not be able to swivel around side to side.  It should be difficult or impossible to twist or pull your piece of steel out of the tongs by hand if you have a firm grip on the tongs. 

 

If the tongs fit correctly a ring on the  tong reins can often be helpful as you don't have to concentrate on holding the tongs closed.  You can hold the tongs loosely and pay more attention to where the tongs want to be so you are holding the steel flat on the anvil as Thomas mentioned.    If you have a death grip on the tongs it can be hard on your tong hand and arm especially under a power hammer or working with a striker.  Just make sure you take the ring and tongs off the stock when you are reheating so you don't burn up the tongs.  The ring does not have to be anything special, a piece of pipe sawn off and flattened or a piece of 1/4" round bent in an oval.  Welding the ring is not necessary although it is stronger. 

[bigfootnampa]

Your metal is surely too cool!  You should easily form those hooks with firm TAPS... no strong blows should be needed!  When I make such hooks I usually use a jig... but sometimes I seek the subtle shape differences achieved by hand forming.  Then I start the hook form with my metal bright red, just out of the forge.  If you have a decorative tip that you don't want to deform, quench it before shaping the hook.  Hooks of that size are all formed in air... that is I'll have the shank of the hook on the anvil step and tap it into form against the resistance of my tongs only... with the hook turning upwards.  This way the bend of the hook is in air and not cooled by anvil contact.  By moving my hammer around the curve I can reasonably well control the shaping of the hook form.  If I want to squeeze it closed a bit more I'll tap against the front of the hook tightening the curve a bit.  If I want the hook to open up a little, I'll flatten the curve a little against the flatter top of my horn.  You can close the hook a bit by forging the outside of the curve a little.

[Judson Yaggy]

Change or adjust your tongs as needed given all the good advice given above, but Frosty's bit was the best.  Practice and repetition.  Make a few dozen, throw the worst ones in the scrap bin.  Then make a hundred.  Don't do this all in one day, give your body and brain time to learn subconsciously.  After some number you will realize what works in terms of heat, tongs, angle and placement of stock in the fire, weight and speed of hammer, etc.  And the best part is that once you have learned this thru repetition it will translate into all of your other work.  And yes, hotter is almost always better.

[Joel OF]

Cheers folks. At the end of the day as I was I driving home and pondering my mixed success I suspected that the metal not being hot enough was part of the problem because I did some without any fuss. Now some of you have suggested the metal wasn't hot enough, it kinda confirms it for me.

[Frank Turley]

 

I've found that pincer tongs with the curved jaws and vee notches are helpful when holding small stock.

 

Sayings and Cornpone

"Tobacco is a filthy weed.

It satisfies no human need.

It scents the pockets and smells the clothes

And makes a chimney of your nose."

     My mother, Nina Turley

[Frosty]

I've got to try a pair of those Frank, thank you.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Joel OF]

Cheers folks, not enough heat was definitely the problem, much easier today.

[Borntoolate]

My Favorite tongs are an ugly extremly light pair that I made early on.  Second pair I think.   I love them..   I use them for everything!   I use them even when I should make a different pair. 

 

 

 

Because they are so light I feel that it requires me to make sure that I hold the hot metal in such a way that my hammer blow does not cause the piece to jump.  Now very hot metal does that but so does "proper placement and contact on the anvil as well as an accurate blow with the hammer".  

 

IF those things are all near perfect, depending on what you are doing, you need very little to keep things in place without jumping about.  I have visited a few shops and felt that many of the tongs were either made for much larger pieces than I mess with or a striker.   A pair of tongs that weighs like 3 lbs will wear me out.   I don't need or want that. 

 

I guess I am saying that lighter tongs may teach you to be more accurate with how you hold and hammer.  plus they are...   umm lighter.   :)

 

The other thing I have learned is sequence is very important.   You mentioned your sequence so I guess you get that.   The rule I try to follow is to keep everything straight as long as possible.  Then do twists.   Then bends and such last.  If possible.   And of course rules don't always apply.

 

I kinda tell folks that a blacksmithed object is something you creep up on.   It often doesn't look like anything until the last heat or so and then all of a suddden there it is!

[Borntoolate]

I am now reminded of the tongs that Brian uses for hammer forging.  They are about as light as you cvan get!   Don't have a pic.

[Francis Trez Cole]

there is a great pair of scrolling tongs made by Bill Epps that he made from railroad spikes I made a pair they work real good and its a great use for all those spikes smiths have  and are looking for things to make with them.

[Gundog48]

Alec Steele made a great video on making hooks that I used to make my own with some success! The jig took 2 mins to weld up which allows you to do nice uniform hooks!

 

[crazeyladyfarms]

looking for photo of tongs made from railroad spikes. for a photo is worth a thousand words

[S.Hollowood]

I was taught to not use tongs to create curls at all. I draw out the curl area square, break the corners, and then round it off. Then i place just the tip of the piece off the far edge of the anvil, using an angled hammer strike i being the curl, turn the piece over using more angled and drawing hammer strikes i finish the curl. 

[Joel OF]

Yeah a jig is in the pipeline haha. I want to get the technique licked just doing it with anvil+tongs+hammer before i knock myself up a jig though, just so i know i can do it. I made these yesterday along with some more J hooks, they aint perfect but i'm getting there.

[forgemaster]

You can bend any size hook you wish, you just need to have it hot, and have the right tools.