mk74 Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Hey everyone, i'm new to IForge, so my question is, when are you considered a blacksmith? I'm a welder and fabricator specializing in stainless steel for the last 15 years, but only been trying my hand at blacksmithing for the past year. People who don't know any better will call me a blacksmith, but in my opinion i don't consider myself one. So i decided you guys are the ones to ask, when did you consider yourself a smith? Thanks Quote
MOblacksmith0530 Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 That's really a good question. I consider myself a blacksmith, l was a welder and fabricator for about 20 years before I turned my attention to something I had always been fascinated by. I then spent a few years learing the basics until I got to a level where if someone brings me something to do I can with confidence make whatever they are asking for in the way a blacksmith in the 1800's of before (in my mind blacksmithing started to die down about 1915) would have done it or be able to tell them it can't be done and suggest another method to do it using these same skills. There are still holes in my repertoire but they are mostly things I have not done, or done the hard way. As blacksmiths we are constantly learning new things but if you have the basics down and can do what is needed then you are one also. I would be curoius to hear other opinions on this one. Quote
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 As soon as you heat a piece of metal, and hammer it into a desired shape. When are you a driver, pilot, golfer, baseball player, etc? With all of these , as soon as you do the activity you are a XXXXX Then the skill level comes into play,as to what level of XXXXX you are. Apprentice, journeyman, master, ace......... Quote
iron woodrow Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 now this is a contentious one........ I am a blacksmith by trade, but there are 'uncertified' people here who know far more than i. There is a saying 'can i call myself an electrician because i can put a new plug on my grinder?' I think accountability is a big factor there. if you arent putting yourself or others in danger, call yourself what ever you want. :) Quote
dablacksmith Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 when your forging the product you sell you are a blacksmith ... if you are welding and grinding you are fabricating its all on what your making at the time... i can fab but i usually dont sell that skill.... it takes some explaining to teach people the difference .... most figure if you work metal its blacksmithin no matter what your doin....and they bring me cast stuff and ask "can you make another one like this one".... as far as bein a blacksmith if you get it hot and beat it your one.... now bein a master blacksmith is a different story...... Quote
r smith Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Long thread on this exact subject not that long ago, Big can of worms. Quote
Ramsberg Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 When is it a can of worms? When they are sealed in the can or when they are taken out? Just can't help myself sometimes. . . wry grin. . . Caleb Ramsby Quote
iron woodrow Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 i am a boiler maker, because i weld, and a cooper when i make a wooden bucket. i am a thatcher when i put grass or reeds on a roof...... all are trades, but because i do it as a hobby, that makes me a tradesman. i applaud people who learn through a different vien than an apprenticeship, and through prior learning can be recognised as skillful and a tradesman, but jogging in a park does not make an athelete. trades and apprenticeships have a purpose, dont they? this is a philosophical question/response, not an attack on any one or anything. just my two rupees. Quote
ThomasPowers Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Yup Worms! My great grandfather was the blacksmith in a small AR hill town; *Lots* of things he could do that I can't---like point a plow for the rocky fields of his area. On the other hand there is a lot of stuff I can do that he couldn't like make pattern welded blades, my ornamental iron is much nicer than the stuff he did; but I've never iron'd a wagon. Are both of us Smiths? Is either one of us a Smith or is none of us a Smith? I'd say that once you had the basic ideas of how to move metal hot with a hammer you are a smith---*when* you use those skills! Quote
TomN Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 I was wondering about this the other day. I'm making some things to sell at a show soon, but certainly wouldn't consider myself a blacksmith. I guess if I can take on big projects and turn my hand to almost anything, then I might consider myself one. A lot of knoweldge to learn and a lot of time to be swinging hammers till that day arrives though. Quote
Timothy Miller Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 I would say when you can make things at the forge that people would actually want to own and would be willing to part with something of value for you are a blacksmith. Also is you can make a forged object come out more or less as you intended it to look you are a blacksmith. The idea of a amateur or professional smith has more to do with if you chose to or are able to make money at it. You could be the best smith in the world and be horrible with money. I didn't start calling my self a blacksmith until I felt I was ready this was after about 3 to 4 years of practice and I was making a few bucks at it. In another sense, I think it is more proper for people to say "I do blacksmith work" who don't make a living at it. Its not about skill level or worthiness it is an occupational title. Would you call your self a farmer if you have a vegetable garden even a very large impressive one. Quote
beth Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 i think everybodies ideas vary on what defines a blacksmith. i often say i do blacksmithing work, but i call myself an artist if people want to know what i do... what type of artist is up to who is asking the question.! if someone is that interested, they can look and decide themselves! im not THAT interested in defining myself in a JOB title.. i think it limits rather than defines. as well, the work should eventually talk for itself - no need for getting in boxes. :) Quote
divermike Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 I guess it's a personal thing, in that we all can delude ourselves. I felt like I was a blacksmith when I realized instead of asking myself "can I do that?" I found myself instead saying "What tools do I need to make to do that job?" This encompasses so much more than it states, and I can't clearly define it, I just know that I have a long way to go yet, and I plan to enjoy every step of it! Quote
Ridgewayforge Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Well, this is a blacksmith forum. We seem to all share the love of blacksmithing, as we are here. If we pursue this hobby, then wouldn't we be blacksmiths? Quote
MOblacksmith0530 Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 Divermike and ridgeway captured it well for me. It is a confidence thing and some ability to do what is required as I said before and do you feel like a blacksmith?. I think the title artist blacksmith applies to a lot of people who are like beth and make the pretty items with an artistic bent so it is really a pretty large open definition in my mind. there are certainly levels of blacksmith as well. I can make the tools to make whatever I want and generally am pretty satisfied with that part. I struggle with the artistic side. more failures there getting the effect I want. I envision or draw what I want and then use the techniques to try and achieve it. That is usually when it all falls down. The metal did what it was supposed to but it didn't look like my vision. Quote
mk74 Posted April 3, 2012 Author Posted April 3, 2012 Sorry if this has been an on going can of worms, but like I said in the beginning i'm new to the forum. I'd like to say thanks for all of the input and comments, you guys and gals have really summed up all the different definitions of a smith for me, and I can include myself in a few of them. I don't consider myself a master smith by no means, but i do think I'm an artist smith to some extent. Thanks. Quote
Smokin' Coke Forge Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 I prefer to keep it simple and objective - Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines a smith as "a worker in metals" and a blacksmith as "a smith who forges iron." Do I work in metals? Yup. Do I forge iron (or some alloy made from iron)? Yup. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? Call me what you want, but I'm a blacksmith by definition. Quote
Colin Davies Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 I call myself a blacksmith when talking to people who definitely aren't, to avoid confusion. I'll start telling other blacksmiths I'm one (instead of trying to be / learning / etc.) when I have either mastered all the traditional forged elements (scrolls, joints, welds, finials...) or my style is developed enough that someone who knows my work could look at it and say, "I know the blacksmith who forged that," or more likely some less rigorous combination of the two. Quote
Bowmaod Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 I sometimes jokingly refer to myself as a blacksmith among friends, usually when pain tolerance comes up. After all, I own a forge and I made a chisel...I guess that counts for something? But if someone asked me, I'd adamantly declare that I am in no way, shape, or form a blacksmith (yet, ha!). Quote
double_edge2 Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 The can of worms is I suppose, comes down to the formal recognition, or piece of paper, for title, or hobbiests uses of the tag. To some people,... watch someone playing guitar, who studied successfully at a conservatorium for the years required, Then pick up guitar and learn "A" song well, are you a guitarist, musician? Artistic, yes. Same with steel, a few pretty shapes, hinges, a successfull artist?, a published one at that, with a blacksmith tag, yes? Now, a rated 20 ton hook, or a rated chain sling repair, or structural mod to a piece of equipment, where someone's life depends and relies on your work? Then the "title" "blacksmith" comes in to play. (I'd want to see the piece of paper) Titles and tags get thrown around a bit, ....if you earned the "title" at A school, or did your time under one and he said you are one, then you are one. No matter how badly you do it. ....and a boiler maker or enginneer who blacksmiths, might say so, as the blacksmithing used to be a part of boiler making here I think. Or vise versa.... if you are doing the job of one, successfully, with one to watch over you, then you "may" be considered as one, if he's around. Dictionary definitions and tags aside, Fact is, even if you can do, with the same understanding and practice, of ALL that a blacksmith practiced and learned in their formal training, and still have no issued certificate, though you may deserve the title and outdo a blacksmith, you are not considered qualified to be legaly responsible and accountable for your what may need to be "rated" structural work.....you are still just someone who practices blacksmithing, and uses the "tags" blacksmith, or artist blacksmith, to further difine how you play with steel. ( I've hired both, and would hire either) and I use the tag, but quite quickly correct in issues of structural consequence, that I am not a qualified blacksmith,.... and my work when needed to be, is subject to the approval of the engineer or titled blacksmith for structural work. Or something like that....yada yada Quote
iron woodrow Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 i think this has basically said something that i was trying to say earlier. from a liability/safety point of view, you cant profess to be something you are not. yes the dictionary might say that it iis one who forges iron, but have a look at the definition of "electrician" i wouldnt like a hobbyist wiring my home.......... but....... i worked with a complete dodo of an apprentice, who is a fully qualified smith, but only because of the fact that time ticked over, and he is still as limited in his range of abilities as when he started. and i have also met very talented and ingenious fellows, who never went down the path of apprenticeship. rpl (recognition of prior learning) would be passed by these individuals with flying colours, if they wanted the piece of paper....... i dont believe in canning worms, so if you wouldnt mind me opening a can of spagghetti..... :P Quote
Marksnagel Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 I am Mark! Of this I am sure. Call me what you want. Jack of some trades, master of none. Quote
Francis Trez Cole Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 when you are recognized by your peers Quote
Trip Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 I believe when you can design a project, forge all the parts, and the FINISH the project as designed, and also know the basic skills of a smith (tapering, punching, forge welding, riveting, and scrolling) then you are a smith. Me? Well I am a part time smith, full time burden. :D Quote
basher Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 I have worked with trained and self taught smith and learned much from both. some of my best lessons were on how to completely ignore the traditional doo's and dont's. hit hot metal, at that point you are smithing and therefore a smith. Quote
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