When are you considered a blacksmith?

[Dan P.]

I've been a professional blacksmith since 2003, and I still can't light a cigarette that way, and believe me I've tried!

 

I would also like to add that that "masterpiece" on the Wisconsin History site, while obviously made utilizing a broad range of very well-developed skills, is a hideous mish-mash of styles, topped off with some kind of frightening DMT entity. I'm not sure if that makes it "good" or not?

 

Which brings me to the verge of going on ramble through my thoughts on ironwork, forge-work, fabrication, and an analysis of their place in the history of applied arts.

But I won't, because I should already be at work, tig-welding together a frame and cladding it in lead, you know, as we "blacksmiths" do. 

[beth]

dan p you should - thats where it gets interesting in my oppinion - its probably all been said but the grey areas still concern me! having said that, the cigarette thing is obviously important too though...... you must APPLy yourself....

[Alan Evans]

dan p you should - thats where it gets interesting in my oppinion - its probably all been said but the grey areas still concern me! having said that, the cigarette thing is obviously important too though...... you must APPLy yourself....

 

+1 to the interesting grey areas.....please find time to ramble for our benefit DanP

 

Alan

[ciladog]

I think we need to put this debate into perspective.

 

 

 

http://www.nyblacksmith.com/index.php?p=1_2_Gallery-1

 

 

Can you figure out which work was done by a blacksmit?

 

 

[Timothy Miller]

His first picture is of a steel butt I guess that could put things in perspective.

[ciladog]

His first picture is of a steel butt I guess that could put things in perspective.

That is just too funny.  :lol:

[Alan Evans]

Interesting interpretation of "putting things in perspective"... I found the work obviously technically competent but pretty narrow (or at least focussed) in aesthetic range.

 

I definitely think a rambling discussion started off by DanP  "Which brings me to the verge of going on ramble through my thoughts on ironwork, forge-work, fabrication, and an analysis of their place in the history of applied arts." would serve to put blacksmithing in perspective better for me.

 

Alan

[ciladog]

Interesting interpretation of "putting things in perspective"... I found the work obviously technically competent but pretty narrow (or at least focussed) in aesthetic range.

 

Alan

 

Alan,  This smith started as a farrier in 1979  then became New York City, NY's blacksmith and worked their until he just retired.  The work you see on his website is his personal work while he worked for NY.  You can't imagine what the diversity of his work for the City was.

 

The perspective is that he worked his entire working life moving metal.  Now he can make what he sees in his minds eye.  How many can say the same?

[Pug}{maN]

I think we need to put this debate into perspective.

Lantern.jpg


http://www.nyblacksmith.com/index.php?p=1_2_Gallery-1



Can you figure out which work was done by a blacksmit?

Feel better about yourself? That's a childish thing to do . Can't come up with a better plan so just bring me down .

But it still doesn't change anything, I am the lowest dirtbag on the bottom of the totem pole, but guess what that totem pole is called? The blacksmith pole I may be at the very bottom but I still am 1

And like Uncle sie would say that's a fact jack! Lol

[DanielC]

Actually I am much lower on that pole than you. Loo.

Me <---- Novice blacksmith (neophyte maybe?)
Pughman <-----Adept blacksmith
Tim Miller <-----Master Blacksmith (Grandmaster maybe?)

What qualifies each? Perhaps hours spent doing the trade. Other than hours there really is no other way of judging how much one knows and can do over the Internet.

[beth]

id like to know why the keeness to be in a box... the labels titles them and us stuff, why we think it matters... it gets very tribal and xclusive, would be better to talk about specifics in general terms, so for instance -  i saw the butt and the most obvious thing i would say is why make that from steel? yes technically competant, but there are other things to consider, i dont know if im alert enough to be able to muster up the intelligence for this debate today though!!! which i think is an Important and interesting one.. come on alan, your good with words..... 

[Pug}{maN]

Funny thing is I've made 4 of them candle holders sold them for 20 bucks each don't think 80 bucks is too shabby.. LOL..

[beth]

being a blacksmith or anything else is not about ticking things off a list and then you hit the jackpot, in a prescribed place, its about (like anything else worth doing) being fully engaged in an intelligent thoughtful process, where you do the best you can, to learn the way for you to proceed effectively. maybe its a state of mind mahhhhn!

[Alan Evans]

Alan,  This smith started as a farrier in 1979  then became New York City, NY's blacksmith and worked their until he just retired.  The work you see on his website is his personal work while he worked for NY.  You can't imagine what the diversity of his work for the City was.
 
The perspective is that he worked his entire working life moving metal.  Now he can make what he sees in his minds eye.  How many can say the same?

Too true. And my apologies, I am struggling to use my mum's iPad and I had not got past the first gallery link when I posted.....removes foot from mouth....obviously a man of many parts.

My interest is always in the art/innovation/ideas rather than purely technical side. Having said that I have built loads of tools to enable me to do things technically. This thread is about blacksmithing which is a technical process so my arty farty side track was innapropriate.

To the OP my answer has been covered by many others. My definition is that if you manipulate a piece of hot iron or steel you are doing blacksmith's work....the quality or technical proficiency could be good or bad.

Whether your aesthetic refers to the forms of the past or present and is either abstract or figurative is a more interesting (for me)'topic for another thread so I will stop going on about it!

[beth]

moi aussi :) 

[doc]

When I posted the remark about the kittens and biscuits I meant it to be tongue in cheek. I had no idea that so many would take it so seriously.I always think that this kind of conversation or debate is really a chase your own tail kind of conversation. It seems as though many of us have lost our perspective or don't really have one.To kind of put us back on track and let those who like to call themselves blacksmiths whether they've done it for four hours or 50 years, I'd like to relate what I was once told by Francis Whitaker more than 30 years ago.

 

Francis Whitaker..........." when I had been smithing for 10 years, I knew I was a pretty good journeyman and thought I knew quite a lot about blacksmithing. After 20 years I thought I was quite a blacksmith and after 40 years, I realized how little I knew."

 

To quote Francis again….This time from the book of A Blacksmiths Craft. I quote" after 20 years, you think you are a master, 40 years later you realize that you were just crossing the threshold."

 

I've only brought Francis into this debate not to continue it, but to show how someone whom by many is considered a great master looked upon his experience with a perspective that was constantly changing. I don't think it matters who calls themselves a blacksmith and who doesn't, because from wherever they stand now as time goes by and their knowledge increases their perspective will change. Hopefully many will look back on their lives and laugh about who they thought they were and who they think they are now, just as Francis did.

[Pug}{maN]

I just flat don't know what to say 2 people when I am at 1 of the tractor show demos I do, or at a craft fair, or on the street trying to sell my products . When they ask what I am . What am I supposed to do? Tell them I'm a very bad hammer swinger ? Because I will if need be! You guys have no idea how much respect I have for you all and this craft . You get all defensive but there's no means to an end . Please please standardize something to make everyone happy . Like I said if it's common practice to call myself a dirtbag I will

[beth]

pugman i think your wasting your time trying to define something that hopefully will be continually changing... just show them the work - let them think up a title. ? the best things in life simply cannot be standardised - and i cant understand why we would look for that - only limits yourself surely?? 

[Jeff Lodge]

Call yourself what you will. I just don't understand why you need people on the internet to agree with what you are. I won't give this thread another thought... go out and be a blacksmith!

[Pug}{maN]

This board is a little different than most websites . There are true craftsman on here that has been doing this trade for a long time . Most are not fat naked old men behind a keyboard living life in their mind . And the reason I hope to gain acceptance is that I hope to learn from them every little thing I possibly can. But I cannot deny the fact either that there is nothing else to call what I am other than a blacksmith . Although I'm liking Metal Dabbler ...

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

The looming idea that many accomplished Blacksmiths don't like the taste of is; "Blacksmith" and the way that it's defined doesn't encompass any prerequisite for schooling, experience, standard of work...

 

It's understandable to get tossed up about it on the internet, because there's no real discernable pecking order, and the guy that's been doing it for months can hash it out with someone thats quite established and accomplished in the trade... It's called the internet/reality equilibrium;  there should be no shortage of salt...

 

 

I enjoy xxxxxxx both off by calling myself an artist, and referring to the craft as an Art... 

[Dan P.]

beth, blackersmith (are you Alan Evans?), I'm afraid I cannot offer any perspective today. I started writing some perspective, but bored myself so hard and so fast that I gave up.

[beth]

dan you make me laugh! which is why i was hoping you would succeed where i failed :) and offer perspective (?!)  -  but it actually does your heed in doesnt it? yeah blackersmith is mr evans..

[basher]

can you forge weld the eye of a needle?
or knit a pair of sox in steel wool ?
tie an anvil in a knot or knot a tie with an anvil on it ?
Do you feel the smoulder of love between the hammers on the rack? The sharp pang of jealousy as each one has to watch whilst another is taken to caress the anvil, fast loving licks, hot metal Kissed.
Can you feel the low beat of the power hammers heart, a smouldering Dragon in the corner?
Are you broken when the last glimmer of red leaves the steel as it becomes once again "just a piece of metal"?
If you were given a year , or 5, or Ten would you be able to fulfil the plans wrought over the last year, or 5 or 10?
Well ?
Are you just another tool in the workshop? possibly a conductor driven by the music of the steel to pull it all together, smash those pieces until they are just how they always were going to be, forged together and finally in tune.
ore tortured from rock and refined in heat and coerced with pressure and will and time at the hand of the smith.
its all so simple.......Hammer+ Fire +Metal = Blackmsith.

[ciladog]

Feel better about yourself? That's a childish thing to do . Can't come up with a better plan so just bring me down .

But it still doesn't change anything, I am the lowest dirtbag on the bottom of the totem pole, but guess what that totem pole is called? The blacksmith pole I may be at the very bottom but I still am 1

And like Uncle sie would say that's a fact jack! Lol

Pugman,  Posting what I did was not to embarrass you but to give you a knock up side the head, wake you up.

 

 There are so many well accomplished blacksmiths, knifemakers, and artisans that are members here that deserve respect for their craft and by trying to place yourself, at your level of experience, at anywhere near theirs is an insult to them.

 

 A lot more used to post and don't anymore because as the years went on, the website became filled with people that think that if they make something out of hot metal on an anvil makes them somehow an equal and they are not.  These would-be blacksmiths offer advice and contradict the advice of those who know and don't have a clue who they are talking to.

 

Feel better about yourself? That's a childish thing to do . Can't come up with a better plan so just bring me down .

 

I think you are projecting here.

 

"Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denise his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings"

 

Now I know a lot of accomplished blacksmiths, have been tought by them and I collaborate with them on projects but I will never be or think that I am their equal.  There aren't enough years left in my life to get there.  It's about respect and you don't get it.