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Freezing Propane Tanks. A Different Solution


maddog

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17 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

RJS do you also never close a garage door when their is a car inside it?

No I have never done that.  (never had enough room in the garage.)   But I do not see what that has to do with anything.

6 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Bob: You DID go back to the outfit who overfilled the tank and had it out with them. Yes? The 10% valve on the tank is there specifically to prevent a tank from being filled more than 90% and provide sufficient room for expansion up to something like 130f. (don't quote me on the temp)

Sad to say I did not.  I was opening up a new piece of property then as well as working full time and I had bigger fish to fry.  What I did do was watch like a hawk whenever my tanks were being filled after that  and (substantially later in life) made the decision not to store (in use or not) propane tanks in enclosed spaces. 

Not sure what happened but Kitsap county had a couple of  people killed this year from a propane explosion.  The house was destroyed and the noise was heard by people a long way away.

Bob

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Gasoline is a very dangerous substance and cars are rather notorious for leaking it.  (I had a friend who once asked me to look at his engine as there was a strong gas odor.  The rail had loosened and he had over a cup of gasoline down in a spark plug well.  He had asked me as he was in a wheelchair.  I suggested he not drive it till it was fixed.)  Anyway we tend to ignore dangers we are familiar with and make a big deal over dangers that are "different".  I have seen people drive to protest a slight risk ignoring the much greater risk the drive involved.  (My tipping point on risks is when they exceed the risks I run driving to work 5 to 6 days a week and that's the drive not possible border issues.)

I was asking RJS to see if he was doing so or treating *both* dangers with equal gravity.  (I've seen many houses that have gas hot water heaters in the garage which gives me conniptions; luckily I have always banished gas  holding cars from the garage in favour of nice safe tools!) 

Rather reminds me of when I was taking 50# of good sewell seam coal back home from Quad-State on the plane:  Rich suggested I refer to it as "Mineral Samples" and NOT as "coal" as coal burns, explodes, has toxic gasses associated with it, etc.  So I did so and my geology degree actually came in useful again---the previous time was select stones for heating in a fire and dropping in a vessel to cook meat in...we wanted non-exploding, non shattering rocks.

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53 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Gasoline is a very dangerous substance and cars are rather notorious for leaking it.

No argument about that  but I does give a  bit of warning,  gradually increasing odor etc.

When the over pressure valve on a propane tank pops you get exactly zero warning.  You go from no problem to a possible face full of fire faster than you can say "holy!@#$". 

I did a web search on Kitsap and propane explosion and found not only the one I referred to earlier but two others as well.  A similar search only for gasoline explosion  only turned up one and it involved drunken sailors and a camp fire so no surprise there.  Of course as the saying goes "YMMV"

 

Bob

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Most propane explosions are not due to the overpressure valve but to small leaks that gradually build up gas in low places---much like gasoline fumes...   For an interesting experiment go by a rack of "exchange" tanks and sniff for propane.  I've often smelled it.   One good thing  about a smithy with massive ventilation for using a propane forge is that it helps dissipate gas.  (One good thing about living in the Desert southwest is that having open gables and "leaky" walls and doors is often a feature and not a flaw.)

BTW did you search on gasoline garage fires ?

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3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

BTW did you search on gasoline garage fires ?

I searched for gasoline explosions and got one hit  which I described in my previous post.  A search for gasoline fires turned up no hits although from personal knowledge I know of two  both happened a long time ago and both involved the destruction of a vehicle.  Ono of those was probably arson,  the other may have been caused by an accident.  (car was in the middle of the road on fire.)  I have driven my share of flaky old beaters over the years   and never had an incident.  A search for garage fires got some hits,  remarkably few considering the abundance of gasoline powered vehicles around.

As long as I am beating the safety drum I have another point to make:

refillable Propane tanks  should always be transported and stored in the upright position.  If one is on its side and the over pressure valve vents it will vent liquid propane and you will get a much bigger surprise.

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On July 6, 2016 at 8:37 AM, ianinsa said:

whoa there Andy rules and regs are usually there for good reason. I'm not a safety nanny...

Well, I pretty well am a safety nanny.

I didn't mean to imply I agree with this person's approach. I was just using it as an example to illustrate that in-use vs storage are different. In rereading, I realize that wasn't clear.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 5 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I haven't read this whole topic though I will at some point, so if this has been posted previously I apologize.

I was looking online at propane tanks and stumbled across this, I've seen similar on other sites but just thought I'd share. https://www.amazon.com/Powerblanket-PBL20-Cylinder-Propane-Charcoal/dp/B00PKKHC2Y

Now before anyone says something about these being against code, I will state that in some parts of Canada certain styles of tank warmers are against code, so please check your local regulations. I haven't used one of these for this reason, though I would like to when it's -30c here.

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I'm new to the gas forge scene but from reading this entire thread I've gathered that heating the tanks with electric heat is largely frowned upon. I have a three burner gas forge that I built. My burners are pretty closely based on the side-arm design from Ron Reil's page that Frosty and Mike were talking about a while back but I still have some adjustments to make. I'm wondering if the fact that my burners aren't properly adjusted could add to the circumstances that cause tank freezing. I have four boys and two of them are very young and curious (2 yrs and 3 yrs old) so I don't get a ton of time to play around with burner adjustments. Based on everyone's consensus I did go out and buy a 100# tank but I still have the two 20# tanks that I'd like to use as back ups. Long story short, is it possible to adjust a side-arm style burner to get decent forging heat, like bright orange or yellow, while cutting down on the tank freezing of a smaller tank?

I'm wicked new to the smithing world so any information is greatly appreciated!!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Good Morning,

If you connect 2 or 3 tanks together, your draw for a 3 burner Forge will be less from each tank. The surface area of the liquid in the bottle is what controls your draw. 3 Bottles = 1/3 the draw from each bottle = less chance of freezing bottles.

Have you ever noticed that for a house, the large tank is on it's side. More surface area!! Do not tip your Bar-b-que tank on it's side unless you have the correct valve and pick-up for sideways application.

Neil

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4 minutes ago, swedefiddle said:

Good Morning,

If you connect 2 or 3 tanks together, your draw for a 3 burner Forge will be less from each tank. The surface area of the liquid in the bottle is what controls your draw. 3 Bottles = 1/3 the draw from each bottle = less chance of freezing bottles.

Have you ever noticed that for a house, the large tank is on it's side. More surface area!! Do not tip your Bar-b-que tank on it's side unless you have the correct valve and pick-up for sideways application.

Neil

This really is the best solution. A bigger tank also works well, but the increased surface area:volume ration of, for example, 3 twenty lb tanks vs 1 sixty lb tank makes it less likely that the multiple tanks will freeze up compared to a single tank despite the overall volume being the same.

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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:09 AM, VainEnd84 said:

This really is the best solution. A bigger tank also works well, but the increased surface area:volume ration of, for example, 3 twenty lb tanks vs 1 sixty lb tank makes it less likely that the multiple tanks will freeze up compared to a single tank despite the overall volume being the same.

Makes sense. With three 20# tanks you're basically tripling the surface area of the same 60# of fuel. Maybe I'll sell my 100# tank and just pick up a few more smaller tanks and get a nice little daisy chain going.

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  • 5 months later...

I just finished reading this whole thread. I didn't see anyone suggest putting a stock tank heater in their water bath. There are some very knowledgeable people posting, what do you think of this idea. I'm not using propane yet but may sometime so I'm just curious

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17 minutes ago, 4elements said:

I just finished reading this whole thread. I didn't see anyone suggest putting a stock tank heater in their water bath. There are some very knowledgeable people posting, what do you think of this idea. I'm not using propane yet but may sometime so I'm just curious

Not necessary, water has a much higher specific heat than propane so it takes a lot of propane to get a water to change temperature a little. So if you put a 5gl propane tank in 20gl. of water, the water will hardly be cool when the propane is empty. I was an exploration driller and we didn't stop for Alaskan winters. Keeping the mud tub from freezing took one weed burner full time. Another weed burner to thaw hose fittings, and warm pipe joints enough to clean and lube, the geologist kept a bucket of water warm to clean his samplers and tools. We usually didn't do anything to keep 40lb bottles from freezing except maybe hit them with the weed burner if they started to slush up. When it was really bad say colder than -10f we'd put it in the mud tub for a few minutes if it started to slush up.

Just remember to bungee the tank so it can't roll onto it's side, you do NOT want liquid propane going to your burner, makes them burn REALLY rich.

Frosty The Lucky.

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 Frosty, Thanks for the reply. I've learned so much browsing this forum. The only propane forges I've used are at NWBA meetings open forge time. I may build one for portability for when I retire. I might like to do demos and fairs. At my home smithy I burn charcoal

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My pleasure, glad to help. Charcoal is good forge fuel and you can cook lunch without it tasting funny. Propane forge flame can make "glory hole" steak taste funny believe it or not. "Glory hole" steak, prawns, etc. are a two bite size piece on a skewer or toasting fork poked into the heart of the coals for as many seconds as necessary to cook. Usually camp fire coals with large enough . . . glory holes. 

I was born in Everett like that's on topic. :huh:

Frosty The Lucky.

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On 7/28/2017 at 4:11 PM, 4elements said:

Frosty, you must have looked at my profile. I should update to say Granite Falls, WA , but nobody but close locals know where that is

As much as I bug new folk about including their location in the header you bet I look. It's been a while since I visited Everett so I'd have to look to find Granite Falls but I remember it's close. I can't even remember the name of the cafe I ate at every time I was visiting. On Main I think, souvenir coffee cups from everywhere, Alaska too of course and great pie. IIRC there was a 2nd. hand shop across the street. My Aunt and Uncle lived on Jade about a 5 minute walk.

I remember when Everett smelled like pulp mills. :wacko:

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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  • 5 months later...

I know that this has been addressed in others discussion, but I would like to know if anyone has cold weather problems with the propane on 20# bottles and feeding the burner on their forge.  My shed is very small so I  forge outside and I know that small bottles frost up how can I  help with this problem, the weather has been mild only in lower twenties early morning but that is my free time and I can not move inside.  

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