Freezing Propane Tanks. A Different Solution

[brian robertson]

5 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

0.023 is way too small.... where did that size come from?

Dave's video. I've got no trouble welding with this forge; it's the frosting that's the problem

[Frosty]

Why aren't you asking Dave? Using a 0.023 mig contact tip as a jet in a 3/4" burner is so far off what I build I don't know what to tell you.

Frosty The Lucky.

[brian robertson]

tried contacting  Dave through FB, haven't heard back

 

[Frosty]

I watched the Youtube vid far enough to see he IS recommending a 0.025" mig tip as a jet in a 3/4" x 9" burner tube. That is just too far out of what I consider good working ratios for a burner to comment further. I remember watching some of his construction methods and liking those. I should've paid more attention to his ratios it would've changed my opinion significantly.

I can see why your outfit isn't working well but no idea why it's doing what it's doing. It's just too far off my scope. You're going to have to wait and hope Dave responds.

Frosty The Lucky.

[brian robertson]

I've gone with a manifold set up with 2 40lb cyls. Still quite the welding machine. lean is definitely the way to go. A friend noticed very little dragon's breath and hardly much scale.

Frosty, what is the recommended mig tip size for a 3/4" burner? it's made from a 9" nipple with a 2" SS flare

 

[Frosty]

A 9" tube + 2" flare is 11" total, and I don't run them lean. I'm afraid I'm not much help with that set up.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

                                        Help Frosty help!!!

I here the guys talking about gas jet diameters and can plainly see they are confusing capillary tubes and holes; THEY AIN'T HOLES!! There is a little thing goes on in them called friction that changes everything about the process. I just can't get around all the words right now to pontificate on the subject, so you do it for me, please.

BTW I'm back (kinda).

Frankenburner

[Anachronist58]

Great to see your voice again, Mr Frankenburner!

Are you thinking about laminar flow, and or adiabatic compression/expansion?

Robert Taylor

Edited April 27, 2016 by Anachronist58
addition

[Frosty]

AlRIGHT MIKE!!!  Dr. Frankenburner returns.

I've pretty much given up trying to explain some things Mike. IF you can get them to realize the basic difference between a hole and a nozzle they start driving you nuts wanting specific numbers, rates ratios, etc. etc. they don't understand either.

There's a reason Ron doesn't talk to people much anymore and why he and I went our different burner ways. Sometimes I think it's like trying to explain injector timing for HP vs torque to someone who doesn't know how an Irish Mail works.

I just try to get folks something that'll work. Like the old blacksmith saw goes, "Excellent is the enemy of good." Most folk who can appreciate the fine points of squeezing the absolute most out of a burner don't need much more than some basic info and they'll tinker their own version. Most guys just need something that'll work. The only reason I started using mig tips is I'm too lazy to drill the jet hole over and over till it's the right size for a tuned flame. Mig tips change easy for gross changes and shortening them incrementally leans the flame.

You've seen my illustrated burner plans. Should I have to explain anything?

It's really good to see you posting again Brother, you're one tough guy.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Robert,

It's very simple. The reason this gas jet (which I called an "accelerator" in my book in order to make an important point) is there is to accelerate the gas molecules, exchanging the (worthless for our superposes) energy from pressure to kinetic energy in a high speed gas flow. If the gas tube was perfectly smooth there would still be friction; the friction of all those little molecules banging away on each other as they line up to do their jobs. The nigher the gas pressure the more the friction, and the smaller the tube the more the friction, too.

It isn't that cross section of the gas tube doesn't matter, but it's not the big dog in the yard, now is it?

Mikey

   

[Mikey98118]

Frosty is dead on the money,

I've gone way down the track with burners; into MIG tips' needles. and various other source of capillary tubes for making gas jets, and I couldn't answer  a question into how to  properly handle the gas jet on another man's burner design; every part is simply to enter related. You may as will be asking him to tell you how high is up.

[Mikey98118]

Brian,

Back is 2004 my book was publish, showing people like you how to build very hot and very gas frugal burners, and  just how to build the equipment to put it in; since then thousands have delighted customers all over the globe hav done just that. You don't even have to buy a copy, since it has been pirated on countless free sites.

If you want an easy to build hot burner the Frosty "T" burner is available right here.

There are various guys here who have built ribbon burners do, and Wane has a right up on it through his site.

Are you saying you'd rather pine around for an author you can't contact than get all our help choosing a better burner in the first place? That isn't really what you're saying is it?

[Frosty]

I am NOT trying to be dismissive of anybody. I'm really trying to express why some aspects are more frustrating to try and understand than is useful. I'd already been messing with the things when the internet went public and I got pointed to the ABANA email list, "theforge.list" and the old "Artmetal.list" where I met up with Ron Reil and a few other guys fooling with home built burners.

I was given a number of papers printed by companies making various induction devices all toting their advantages and explaining in detail why they were better. It was also a time when you could JUST search the US patent server without being overloaded by marketing BS. Anyway, I learned more about linear inducers like Ron's burners, then there the "ejector" type inducers like the "T", "Sidearm," MIkes, etc. but don't stop there there was a BUNCH of info about the "Amplifier" type inducer of which Mr. Dyson is finally putting into public hands. An "Air Amplifier" induces IIRC 40+ to 1 and so is pretty worthless for a burner.

Anyway, there were a bunch of us messing with the things and I went down the "Ejector" road and I aimed at a build that required NO adjustment in use. There is a reason Ron has a choke plate on is stronger inducers. It's not bad it just is.

When I started using mig tips it was literally because I was getting REALLY tired of drilling holes in pipe caps to make jets. It would've been okay if I could just drill a #58 (or whatever) and it was good to go but NO I have to adjust the air fuel mix to get a good flame. So, I just tapped the pipe nipple and started trying mig tips. Then I discovered after rereading the papers I had, I could increase the induced air by moving the orifice farther upstream. So I cut and clean mig tips to tune the burner now.

By setting up a mock up "burner" using clear plastic tubing I substituted smoke for propane and discovered what I thought was happening actually was. I'd guessed right! The smoke was maintaining a smooth uniform cone as it was blown down the burner tube. Air being induced was then forming toroid turbulence with the smoke. If the tube were too long the toroid formation started breaking up and induction fell off. The pamphlets and patent papers all said 8or9 to one diameter to length. It's an industry standard ratio.

Doing the same experiment with a piece of pipe with a hole drilled in it like Ron's basic design didn't form such a nice uniform cone, it was much more obtuse, it expanded quickly and not so smoothly. This meant he HAD to put his orifice closer to the throat and it had to be smaller in dia. to induce work.

One of my early drawings (I wish would go away!) shows a build using threaded lamp rod and locking nuts to carry the jet. while it was pretty easy to adjust the orifice setback by turning the lamp rod the lamp rod induced a LOT of bad turbulence and inhibited air induction. It worked but it was far from a good design.

You should've seen some of the gas jets I made on my lathe, I came close to commercial performance and would if I set up a metal spinning lathe so I could contour the tube and intake chamber. Unfortunately it would be pretty useless posting those plans here I doubt there are two people here who know how to spin tube on a split die. Heck know what I'm talking about even.

Yeah, my burner can be tricky to get tuned but once it's dialed in you don't have to mess with anything but the fuel pressure.

When I started experimenting with mig tips I certainly noticed how much better the gas jet was, the mig tip was acting as a nozzel as well as a quick change artist! Nozzle good and that's all the more I thought about it. a few years later Mike and I exchanged a few emails and he was talking about a accelerator and I was only thinking it's effective whatever it is.

We have two different approaches but we speak the same language. Mike and I trying to discuss the fine points of the hows and whys of these things here is probably more confusing than helpful. I'm not smarter than you guys I've just read about, thought about and tinkered with the things since the early '80s.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

On the one hand I agree that for most smiths most of the time, good enough is good enough, so why should I consider it worth while to keep pushing the envelope this way?

Nothing changes the same; especially not in the market place. A person can't do a thing about the price of fuel, rent, etc. But a person can always do better about fuel deficiency and how long the work takes to do. It was because of a bad local oxygen market that I stated getting interested in air fuel burners; that market never did improve, but what I could do without using oxygen sure did!

[Frosty]

We don't disagree Mike I probably was just too unclear. My intent of that long winded tome was to say there are so many guys who don't understand how to get one of my burners tuned for me to want to try explaining formula 1 burners. I started winkling out burners because I didn't want to pay >$300 for a commercial burner and a friend turned me onto some brochures that explained enough to make it much easier.

As soon as I figure out how to get a PDF to download to my computer instead of Adobe demanding I sign up and file it in the cloud I'll start tinkering with your designs.

I still may get my lathe set up, cut some split tooling and I'll show you formula 1 burners.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

Not only do we agree over all about burners, but I think the differences are essential to keep the home made burner "market" healthy. I've even decided to build and keep on hand models of your burner, Ron's burner, the modified side-arm, and one  low priced commercial burner that I admire as being worth Its price in order to show would-be builders what a large range of acceptable burners there are in the world.

You have convinced me that, so long as the burner is a reasonably designed and built model, it should be up to the guy that construct it, how it should be built; they only thing my fair mindedness does not include is " some of this and some of that burners." from people who don't have a plan at all. 

[EricJergensen]

You are both doing the community a big service with your efforts and advice! It's much (and widely) appreciated!

[Frosty]

Hmmmm. I wasn't really trying to convince you of anything I was just getting into the conversation and expressing my reasoning and experience.

Still, it's a truth, a person doesn't need a Ferrari for a daily commuter anymore than they need a pickup truck. I have 4 burners on my shop forge and almost never light a second one let alone all of them.

Every day guys ask for help with a burner. Guys who haven't bothered to read let alone follow one of the several well written and complete sets of construction plans available. I've just about burned out rewriting the SIMPLE TO FOLLOW directions. Every day I find guys who can't calculate a volume, heck don't know what volume means and they want to design things. It's not their fault they don't know simple math or speak simple English. These poor kids don't have enough basic educational skills to sift good from obviously stupid junk. Thank you social media! Basic shop skills? In modern America? Oh how neolithic, work with your HANDS!? Too many don't have the basic reading comprehension to even see differences between one burner design (I'm using that term VERY LOOSELY HERE) and another. Of course they mix and mismatch components. What really gets me is having them argue with answers to their problems. I've recently been implementing a new personal policy if someone asks me a question and argues with my answer I'm NOT going to argue and certainly not answering another. I'd like to enjoy participating on Iforge and I don't like arguing.

I feel for them and would like to help but I'm getting fried. The exact same non-issue problems over and over. These poor kids are graduating college with degrees and don't know the difference between an "Idea" and a "Plan."

I don't think you know how much I cherish our differences Mike. You give me things to think about and mull over. Worthy differences, good solid reasons why what I do isn't as good as it should be. These are important to me. After all these years I'm going to have to make one of your burners so I can speak from experience. This is a GOOD thing.

I can't tell you how happy I am you're coming back so strong and fast. I missed you sorely.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I like you too Frosty.

The way I ended up starting the first book was the  problem of writing the same questions over and over as the answer grew longer and longer. Finally I started saving my longer answers and turning them into files to cut and past in respnce for each repeat question at it came up; after a while I noticed that the accumulation was two-thirds of a book long, and want hunting for a publisher; was only after we signed the contract that he edited out half of it, demanded hundreds of drawings to huge from, six months of editing, and two years more of my time

Still,   saving my longer answers and turning them into files wasn't a bad idea; just think twice before jumping end to phase two  

[Andy98]

On 12/7/2010 at 5:21 PM, maddog said:

In my shop, *any* size tank will freeze in cold weather. Plus I dont have the $$ to go buy a couple of 24gal tanks. I run a small forge but I run it hot. A 5 gal tank lasts me about 8hrs.

 

In case it helps: I can't remember the exact numbers, but I was recently chatting with a guy near that rents his 100# tanks. The monthly charge was silly - like $5-$10 for the tank, and the refill cost was also really low (I recall thinking it was only a little more than I pay to swap my BBQ cylinder - plus they came to him). He has three or four of these tanks in his shop, and he would only refill/swap the tanks maybe every couple months (so he was not a high volume guy). 

On 12/11/2010 at 8:35 AM, ciladog said:

Something that has not been mentioned in this thread is the fact that storing propane tanks inside a building without a special permit is a violation of the Uniform Fire Code. It doesn’t matter what size tank it is (I suspect that small torch tanks are exempt).

On 12/11/2010 at 9:03 AM, Jeff Seelye said:

How do you run a propane fork truck inside?

A propane tank attached to something is not being stored - it is being used. Different rules.

Same guy as above keeps all of those tanks attached to something at all times (cutting torch, forge, etc...) specifically to circumvent the "storage" requirements. I can't say if an inspector would buy this dodge or not, but a legitimately in use cylinder isn't a problem AFAIK.

[ianinsa]

whoa there Andy rules and regs are usually there for good reason. I'm not a safety nanny and I view numerous OSHA regs as ridiculous yet just the thought of having numerous LPG/propane cylinders inside a building is just irresponsible. In the event of a fire these bombs place the lives of 'first responders' at risk. We regularly use 48kg tanks(i suppose similar to your 100#) indoors yet when done it's stored in a gas-cage as per our local by-laws. The gas cylinder on the forklift is much like the fuel in your vehicle . You are usually not permitted to store more than 1 gallon In a container etc.

[ThomasPowers]

I've noticed a lot of the small BBQ cylinders with slow leaks before.  Not a problem if outside where it can dissipate but can be a problem in a structure.

[rjs]

R.E.  propane tanks inside:

Back in the late 70's a propane dealer over filled the tanks for my travel trailer.  The next day (warm and sunny)  I was outside and heard a loud
"pop"from the direction of the trailer front. I looked and saw a brief cloud of vapour at the tanks.  I kept my eye on it and it happened several more times before it stabilized.  No harm done but I sure would not have cared to have that happen inside my shop with a lit forge sitting there.Those tanks, in use or not, belong in a well vented outdoor space.

Bob

[ThomasPowers]

RJS do you also never close a garage door when their is a car inside it?

[Frosty]

Bob: You DID go back to the outfit who overfilled the tank and had it out with them. Yes? The 10% valve on the tank is there specifically to prevent a tank from being filled more than 90% and provide sufficient room for expansion up to something like 130f. (don't quote me on the temp)

Having the pressure relief valve pop is a BAD thing, better than a tank bursting but bad still. An employee who doesn't know how to fill a tank shouldn't be filling them though you never know when a new person just does it without anybody else knowing.

That happens as does a much more common bit of abuse and that's the owner or person filling the tank cranking the tank valve off HARD "to be sure". Reefing the valve off damages the otherwise precision valve causing them to leak. Just a firm turn till it stops is plenty. In truth you never know if the person filling your tanks has ever done it, had any training or cares your only realistic recourse is to stand there and watch them.

Filling: Weigh the tank, connect the hose to the tank, start the pump, open the tank valve and the 10% valve (the little one sticking out of the side of the tank valve body) open the 1/4 turn ball valve on the filler hose connection. When liquid spits from the 10% valve close the 1/4 turn valve, close the tank valve snug NOT hard and remove the filler connection. Log the weight and pay the bill.

Propane isn't really any more dangerous in the garage or shop than a gas engine, vehicle, etc. Both fumes are heavier than air but both have a strong smell. If you smell it open a door, do NOT turn on a light or use an electronic garage door opener. Fuel or diesel fuel is actually a LOT more dangerous though it's strong odor should be warning enough to prevent tragedy.

Frosty The Lucky.