metallurgy

[Houjous]

Forgive me for both asking to  many question and also if this post was previously posted. The topic pages I saw tagged at the top and the what I looked through the user made topics and found nothing.

 

is there a webpage or book or .xls sheet giving metallurgy information about steel definitions not just the if it's an alloy or aluminum etc but like whats the difference between 1095 and 1084 or why I want spring steel over high carbon or mid carbon. I figure that I can start learning how to blacksmith by making my tools. I'm starting with a hammer because I want a lighter one. I was going to do one steel because the vender I was using from my last purchase only had one flavor of steel and after 15-20 minutes of searching to see if it was a good steel they said it was a bad choice. 

[LeeJustice]

See if you can get a copy of the ASM Metals reference book.

[ThomasPowers]

You mean something like "Alloying Elements in Steel" or the ASM Handbook? (One of the earlier ones might be easier to use and cheaper to find.)

As you are in the USA I'd visit your local public library and ask about ILL as you will probably want to review a bunch of books before deciding to purchase any.

[Frazer]

Most Machinery's Handbooks have a section on properties, treatment and testing of materials (this includes steel). I have the 30th edition which is relatively new. There might be a 31st edition now, but much of the information stays the same (including the older editions). Most notably, they removed the blacksmithing section that was found in earlier editions, but the trade off is more modern examples and applications.

The nice thing is there is also a lot of additional info in there that is not specific to metallurgy. Some of the older versions can be found used much cheaper than new. It's commonly referred to as "The Bible of the Mechanical Industries".

I will add that because it's not specifically a reference book for steels it is not as complete as the other sources already provided.

 

[JHCC]

29 minutes ago, Frazer said:

“The Bible of the Mechanical Industries"

49 minutes ago, Houjous said:

giving metallurgy information about steel definitions

If you have a smartphone, the "Heat Treater's Guide Companion" app from ASM International is informative and free.

[Houjous]

thanks for the tips i also found this wiki page that is useful:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades

[ThomasPowers]

I have a sheet of the SAE grades up on the wall of the shop; however you need to figure out what they mean to you wrt blacksmithing---what elements in an alloy make forge welding difficult or increase the hardenability of steels?  What should be avoided---except where they are mandatory! Etc.  Some of this can be dug out; but not a lot of modern sources are written with blacksmithing in mind. A lot is experience and talking with other smiths---and even then smiths may have favorites and ones they avoid!  (Why do you see S7 used but not S1 ? Who would advocate the forging of D2 or H13 to a beginner?)

Note too that good knifemaking books will have a section on different steels suitable for blades; often with info like start to forge temps and stop forging temps, what to quench in, etc.

And then you get to weird things like Titanium or real wrought iron.  WI is a "historic oddity" and Ti, well they generally don't consider it a smithing metal; as it's so new and fancy...

[dickb]

It might help to narrow down the scope of the question, and search Google for answers. For example :

"Best material for blacksmith tongs"  or "1095 Steel uses" or "1095 Steel vesrsus mild steel".  I Think your post mentions making a hammer. That's much too hard for a beginner.

Edited September 21, 2021 by dickb
I inadvertantly posted the response before finishing it.

[Frosty]

Houjous: You are WAY overthinking this. Almost nothing in a basic blacksmith's kit needs a specific kind or grade of steel. Virtually any hammer can be made from a medium carbon steel, pickup truck axels are excellent. Coil spring is excellent for most hand tools: tongs, punches, chisels, hold fasts, etc. A hardy can be made from your axle as can top cuts. 

Like most folk new to a craft you want the best tools and equipment you can afford. Perfectly understandable and being as it's the blacksmith's craft you want to make your own which is a great way to learn or improve basic skills. Unfortunately at this point you don't know enough to make use of the answers to the questions you're asking, very few of us on IFI do.

What you should be asking is, "What steel is good for X tool." What that steel is made from is unimportant compared to it's utility.

For many tools grade just does not matter, mild steel or A-36 works just fine for tongs. Sure many of us, myself included like a medium carbon steel for tongs, it lets us make them thinner and lighter weight without losing strength. But as a beginner ALL you want to do is hold a piece of HOT steel so thicker mild not only does the job you need, it's easier to forge and you have more room to correct mistakes. 

Forget metallurgy for now, I know of a couple Iforge members who hold degrees in metallurgy and material science, one with both and you don't hear them talking about what alloy to use for common items.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just trying to save you a lot of confusion over something that really doesn't matter at a beginner's level. Maybe one day if you start forging pattern welded blades looking into the characteristics of specific alloys will pay off. 

If you're basing your thoughts on something somebody in an online video or blog said, they're just blowing smoke trying to sound more impressive than they are.

Frosty The Lucky.

[patrick]

For you The Complete Modern Blacksmith by Alexander Weygers will be a good investment.  He covers lots of ways to recycle old steel into tools and does so based in their prior use rather than knowing the specific steel grade. Practical Blacksmithing is another good reference. Almost everything you need can be made from low carbon/low alloy steel. The exception, and even here it is not an absolute necessity, is hammers. Other steels often offer significant advantages but require that deeper knowledge not only of alloying elements but also heat treatment if you are going to use them. Grade 1045 is perfectly fine for hammers, but others will work too. That one is cheap and easy to heat treat. 

[JHCC]

The only caveat about Weygers is that he wrote his books before manufacturers started getting cute with proprietary alloys, so some of his advice may be outdated. Some of his explanations about heat treatment theory are a bit off as well. Nonetheless, his instructions about how to test steel for hardenability and for the correct degree of tempering are quite good.

[ThomasPowers]

Howdy Patrick; I've been talking up SF to some MatSci students in case you want some interns next year!  I'm getting ready to retire.

As I recall axles are generally around 1050 and so a good choice for starter hammers.

[patrick]

Thomas, thanks for the good words. Please feel free to give them my email. I am looking for interns. Will you make it to quad state this weekend? We're heading there tomorrow. 

[ThomasPowers]

With the Delta and other issues, (Like the local electrical coop DOUBLING their estimate to run power to my shop!---And an ER visit in Oregon when I had an insulin crash...), we are not going this year to my GREAT disappointment.  Being retired next year I expect we will be there with bells on!

I'll let the folks in Mat Sci know and perhaps talk with Dr Burleigh as well.

[anvil]

On 9/21/2021 at 8:41 AM, Houjous said:

is there a webpage or book

I have such a book. It's put out by Carpenter Tech, a major maker of tool steels. 

"Carpenter Matched Tool and Die Steels" 1977.

It's my go to source for tool steels along with 

"The Heat Treaters Guide Companion".

This one is a free APK found at the play store. 

The first one lists what Carpenter steel calls a family of steels. Each steel is listed individually and gives it's AISI name, it's chemical makeup,how to heat treat and, more for your needs, it's "best" use. 

It's also arranged in a grid where all are represented. As you proceed from the center with their W1 steel. Go up for harder and down for tougher.  As you go to the right, steels are listed hotter and to the left colder.

The center steel is a W-1 tool steel and is considered to be the best all purpose general use tool steel. In each steels dialogue, it lists best uses, then gives suggestions for tougher or cold to hot uses.

They list 12 of their steels and these are the steels most commonly used by both blacksmiths and knife makers.

[Houjous]

Frosty:Thank you!   That gives me relief. I have the mind of researching everything i possibly can and when I search the web I often see people say "never use X only use Y for making Z." Because I have a very limited budget I want to use the best cost effect material I can that I wont regret later. 

[anvil]

"never use X only use Y for making Z."

As far as this goes, Heres some advice from Francis Whitaker. You might do a google search to find out who he is if you are unfamiliar with him. 

A paraphrase: "Choose one tool steel and learn how to use it. I recommend W-1 or a 1095. It is a good all around steel that makes decent cutting tools. hammers, hot and cold tools."

Just another point of view.

[Daswulf]

I'm sorry but X makes a Z way easier than Y. It only takes two moves. 

[Frosty]

16 hours ago, Houjous said:

Frosty:Thank you! 

You're welcome, I hope I didn't come across to harsh, I do that sometimes without even noticing.

KISS rules, the more simple you can make it the more likely it will work. 

It just takes a little time to learn enough to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff and internet videos is mostly chaff. Some downright dangerous BS. It will also help you know who to pay attention to and in what regards.  Nobody knows or is good at everything, we all have our strengths.

If you try something that doesn't work, remember what you did to what take a pic or two of the results and ask here. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Houjous]

Frosty na you weren't harsh. but rereading it just to catch myself up on the chain and I do have a question. Is there a reason to not use an high carbon steel or spring steel?

 

secondly is there a difference between types in high carbon steel and spring steel? or as long as it says high carbon or spring steel it doesn't matter.

[JHCC]

Depends entirely on the application. There are some cases where you do not want hardenable steel (e.g., any tongs that are going to be quenched repeatedly to keep them from getting too hot). Also, low-carbon steel is generally cheaper than high-alloy or high-carbon steel. 

[ThomasPowers]

"Spring steel" is not a specific steel; a range of alloys have been used for springs.  High carbon steel should have a carbon content above 60 points and less than cast iron---except for unusual cases.  Note that this term is not always used correctly  "High Carbon Railroad Spikes" usually only have 30 points of carbon and so count as low-medium carbon steel.

You should choose your alloys for what you want out of them.  I prefer S and H alloys for slitters and punches and medium carbon steels for tongs because they have the properties I want.

Automotive Leaf and Coil springs are common and cheap most places and form the basis of a lot of blacksmithing tools due to that.

I'm planning to build a guillotine fuller when I have power to my shop and will size it to use the stock I have in a 80# stack of leaf springs, not worrying if it will be the BEST steel, but knowing it will work well and I have a lifetime supply of "replacement stock".

If you expect your tools to make you a better smith you are in for disappointment.  It's the skills of the tool USERS that make a difference.  Tooling can help things go faster when you know how to work metal.  Analogy time: putting someone who doesn't know how to drive well in a race car does not make them a better driver!

Many people starting smithing seem to want to avoid the practice that makes a great smith great; look at musicians, look at athletes, talent helps; but practice, practice, practice!  As I say 1000 hours working on a US$100 improvised anvil make you a better smith than 100 hours working on a $1000 anvil.

[Frosty]

Houjous: You don't actually expect ME to remember why I said something a year ago do you? Would you like to hear about my TBI, the recovery and continuing issues? Some is pretty funny, some not so much.

I only skimmed my old post and assume I was advising you not to use high carbon until you learn basic forging skills. If it's about the tongs, you'll have to make several pair before they start turning out right. They'll be usable but there's more to good tongs than just usable. Once you have making the tool down pat increasing the difficulty with steel that has lower tolerance heat management, is harder and trickier to forge and has issues with heat abuse after it's made, it MIGHT be time to start using more demanding steel.

Until then make your tongs a little thicker than some guys make theirs. 

Spring steel is an adjective not an alloy. The term describes a steel's utility to rebound from deflection in and to the degree required without undue fatigue. For example mild steel makes a fine leg vise return spring. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Houjous]

ThomasPowers - I'm asking about the steel not to make me a "better smith" I just want to make sure im spending my money wisely on metal. If i want to sell quality knives i dont make them out of railroad spikes as an example....

Frosty - a year ago or less than 20 days ago...one of the two lol

 

[ThomasPowers]

Then yes; there is a difference for every alloy found in a catch-all term; the difference may be small, even unnoticeable to a person's perceptions; but it's there.