Mokume from US nickels?

[Chimaera]

21 hours ago, teenylittlemetalguy said:

I have used nickels before. I can't seem to find a photo, it must have been my last phone.  I did a whole roll without any other metals and it was really nice material.

Teenylittlemetalguy, You used them by themselves for mokume? How? They are a solid alloy, are they not? I'm very interested in this, as everything I've seen says that they're solid... Thanks!

[teenylittlemetalguy]

On 11/12/2020 at 4:56 PM, Chimaera said:

Ooh, beautiful! That was with the half dollars? So, the nickels do work but you suggest adding some pieces of straight copper? Did you weld the stack or just copper wrap it? I have a bunch of copper wire, but I imagine that welding works better...

Yeah, that was half dollars. The faces on them are not as highly raised as the quarters so they are more apt to weld cleaner without lots of prep work. Every little bump between stacks allows air in, which is very bad. the flatter the better. If you quickly hammer them flat you will have the best luck. If you use nickels I would put copper sheet or other coins between so you get contrasting color. The Nickle content in our coins is notorious for de-laminating. I set a rule for myself with nickle bearing materials to never hit it unless it is glowing, that helped me immensely with solving de-lamination issues.

Copper wire is not going to be any help here. Also avoid trying to use brass till you get much better, the zinc in it causes issues.

Any kind of rig you can imagine to hold the coins in place will help. Remember that you are going to need to hit it with a hammer so make sure your fasteners are out of the way. Once I tried welding steel cages around the coins, but it was more effort than it is worth and caused other issues. Flat steel bars and a few cheap fasteners are the easiest. My current rig is 3/4" thick plates, but that would be serious overkill for what you are planning.    

Starting out you will likely be right on that edge of being liquid and squirting metal out the sides is pretty common. Just be prepared for it with proper protection and a fire extinguisher. Once you get the feel for it you can reduce your heat a bit and weld them anyway, that will give you a sharper contrast between the metals and is a sign of experience. 

Good luck with trying this out. Let me know if I can be any help on it for you. 

 

 

On 11/13/2020 at 1:17 PM, Chimaera said:

Teenylittlemetalguy, You used them by themselves for mokume? How? They are a solid alloy, are they not?

 I needed some stock for a project that was just a single color so I welded them up. My project was a success but there was not any contrasting metals. Not really Mokume as they are a single alloy, but it would work with other metal for Mokume. 

On 11/12/2020 at 5:47 PM, Frosty said:

Do you leave enough coins behind to make it worth following you with a sack?

Lol, probably not. I am that guy that picks up every penny I see in a parking lot.

[Chimaera]

Ah, ok. Your original comment made it sound like you got mokume with nickels and nothing else. I can imagine that it likes to delaminate without enough heat. I'm pretty cautious about zinc, had enough people I know get fume fever, and I've developed pleurisy after grinding, even with a respirator. Whether those were related or not, I don't know, but it hurt like heck, so I'm careful about that. I have an idea for a rig, so I'll try that... Get it really close to melting, but don't quite let it? I might try to do some later (maybe quarters, maybe nickels and flattened pipe), so I'll see what happens then. 

[George N. M.]

Chimaera:  One thing that I have observed with mokume gane made from US coins is that the layers are fairly thin to begin with and when forged out very much the layers become so thin as to lose contrast.  It's sort of like the grain in a piece of wood that has grown very slowly.  So, nickles may be a good choice because they are thicker to start with.  As far as I know they are a sold nickle-cupro alloy, not layered or clad like other denominations.  If your copper is thinner than that you can just add more Cu layers.

Also, I don't know if the process would be improved by grinding the relief off the faces so that you start with a smooth faced slug.  If you don't you start with a small layer of air between the coins.  It may not make a difference but it might.  Only experimentation could tell.

I think you could do it in a coal or coke fire carefully by keeping it fairly high in the fire and being very careful about getting it too hot and melting it.  If it starts looking "wet" that is as far as you want to go for temperature.

Good luck.  You will probably fail several times before you get it down.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[ThomasPowers]

If you have good coking coal you should be able to make a cave fire and heat it with no contact.  If you don't; you may try to make a muffle like we do sometimes for heat treating blades---a piece of pipe with one end closed stuck in the hot spot to make an "oven" to heat it.  Probably help to add a bit of powdered real charcoal in the muffle to scavenge O2 as well. Muffle also has the advantage that if you melt the billet you don't mess up the forge...

"coal" doesn't say much about what you are using; just like if you say you own a car: it could be a formula 1 race car, or a non-running yugo or anything in between.

[teenylittlemetalguy]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:04 PM, George N. M. said:

I don't know if the process would be improved by grinding the relief off the faces so that you start with a smooth faced slug.  If you don't you start with a small layer of air between the coins.  It may not make a difference but it might.

It definitely makes a difference.  Flattening, either by grinding or hammering flat. The more the metal is in contact the better. 

[Chimaera]

38 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

So, nickles may be a good choice because they are thicker to start with.

Yeah, I was thinking that could be nice.

33 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

If you have good coking coal you should be able to make a cave fire and heat it with no contac

Sorry, I use anthracite (only thing I can find) so that's a no go...

 

34 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

If you don't; you may try to make a muffle

That sounds like something I might give a shot.

 

35 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

it could be a formula 1 race car, or a non-running yugo or anything in between

Do you have a Yugo? I feel like I've seen you use that metaphor before... And nope. I drive a Reliant Robin. In seriousness, I use nut anthracite from TSC... 

[ThomasPowers]

I'd use "Corvair" but none of the younger folks would get the referenced. I drive a 2004 Toyota Tacoma  5 speed stick. It may be the last car I own!

Remember for your muffle: DO NOT USE GALVANIZED PIPE!

[Goods]

If you want to track down good blacksmith coal, try to hook up with your local ABAN affiliate. (I know there is a group the meets in Cincinnati. I’ve heard talk of meetings over there.) They can tell you were to find some good coal and when the whole COVID19 thing calms down, it’s always good to hang out with other smiths a pick their brains.

David

[Chimaera]

6 minutes ago, Goods said:

They can tell you were to find some good coal and when the whole COVID19 thing calms down, it’s always good to hang out with other smiths a pick their brains.

I think you mean IF...  But yeah, that sounds nice... I really don't know what I'm doing, so some guidance would be great

 

[ThomasPowers]

Not any farther from SOFA than I was when I lived in Columbus OH.

[Welshj]

3 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I'd use "Corvair" 

darn it... i got it. Lol.... almost bought a spyder in TX, but the subframe was rotted beyond repair. The motor was complete though.

[ThomasPowers]

Back in high school I had a friend who drove a Corvair; don't see many on the roads these days. (Perhaps more than Yugos).

[Chimaera]

I'm telling ya, Reliant Robins are the way to go!

[Frazer]

I'm going to answer your question you asked in "Bituminous coal/coke- pricing and purchasing in SW Ohio" here since it's more of a can I use nickels question than a coal price discussion. Nbd, it just keeps the threads a little more on topic. Not that this one won't drift wildly off topic now and then as well haha, but I digress.

Reading though this thread again, it seems like the answer to your question is probably. Although, I don't see why you need nickels and copper sheet and cupronickel sheet. maybe I'm missing why you need all 3. 

Anyway, after cleaning your material thoroughly with acetone, make an alternating stack of nickels, and copper sheet that is cut to size (sheet can can be copper pipe split down the length and flattened). Then you just have to think of a way to keep the stack.... stacked during heating.

George makes a good point about the pipe needing to be more or less exactly the same size as your coin/copper stack. If you use copper pipe, it's pretty soft and easy to work cold, so maybe insert your stack into the copper pipe, then using something flat and heavy, to form the copper pipe by rolling it back and forth applying downward pressure (like you're making a snake out of playdough). Then fold & crimp the sides down and you have a not quite sealed, but maybe sealed enough, pipe-o-stacked stuff that is all weldable and has a similar melting point. No need for a steel pipe unless you're using it as a muffle. 

Of course that plan is quite convoluted and might work in my brain, but I see some issues that may cause it not to work in practice. I'm generally a KISS sort of guy, so I would go back to TP's suggestion in the beginning of making a stack, make a steel jig to clamp the stack that you can throw in the forge, get them up to temp, and give them a nice tap to set the welds. If all of them stick, perfect. If just the ones in the middle stick, great. If none of them stick, why not? Not hot enough? Not clean enough? Too little material in contact due to the faces of the coin? etc. 

There have been a lot of good suggestions here and in the additional info provided in the blueprint shared by Glenn. Use them to make a plan, and give it a shot. Worst case scenario it's a total failure and you learned a bit about how not to do it and what to do next time.

Disclaimer, I've never made mokume, but after reading it sounds like something that I might try when I have a little free time to do so. 

[Chimaera]

9 hours ago, Frazer said:

I don't see why you need nickels and copper sheet and cupronickel sheet. maybe I'm missing why you need all 3. 

It would seem I lost something in translation... I was thinking no cupronickel sheet, but rather alternating nickels and copper sheet, as nickel sheet is xxxxxxx expensive. Your suggestion on how to use the copper pipe was more or less my plan, stuff 'em in, try to form it, crimp the ends. The steel was there as a muffle, as I thought it might be a little tricky in my sub par homemade anthracite death trap. And yes, that idea is quite convoluted, and very well might not work. I have another plan, though- I've got these 1/4"*1" mild steel bars that I could cut two 3-5" sections of, then put a pair of bolts through and a set of wing nuts on one side. Yes, it would be a monstrosity, but it could work... Then I also wouldn't need to get my copper perfectly round, which would be a huge pain. I'll probably build this setup and try this version next time I get my forge out. Thanks for pointing out the errors. That's why I like it here. While trial and error is the ultimate teacher, it's good to hear when something is just a plain bad idea.

[Chimaera]

Here's what I came up with: those are alternating layers of a US nickel and a two thick piece of copper piping. Yes, the steel box is galvanized, but it's small enough that it shouldn't cause problems (I forge outside).

[ThomasPowers]

Right and how does the vaporized zinc affect getting the layers to bond?

[Chimaera]

Oof... Didn't think through that

[Chimaera]

Why did you have to go and ruin my dreams like that??? =( Just kidding. Do you have any idea how the Zinc fumes would effect it? Thanks.

[ThomasPowers]

No I don't I just know that zinc oxide is a powder and not one I would suggest  putting in a billet. 

Pirotechnia, Biringuccio, has a chapter of "colouring copper" using zinc ores as metallic zinc wasn't know then/there.

[Frosty]

Not well. The clamp is really easy to make. Two square pieces of steel enough larger than the coins so the coins in the center clear the 4 bolts in the corners. My first one was 1/4" bolts and I wasn't so happy with it. The second one was with 3/5" bolts and it worked a treat. I didn't have any 3/8" strap stock and that would've worked even better.

I flattened the quarters on my anvil using a flatter and single jack sledge. If you let the flatter stand on the quarter it'll flatten evenly with one good smack. Get carried away and the thickness can get wonky.

Anyway, I sanded the faces lightly and degreased with acetone, alcohol works but I used what I had on hand. I stacked the coins in the clamp and tightened the stuffins out of it. Keep the bolt pressure even but as tight as you can reasonably get them.

Then comes the magic of using a steel clamp. Steel has a lower coe than copper or nickel, so the coins will expand quite a bit farther and at lower temperature than the clamp will. Get it right and you don't have to hit the stack at all. Not being good at it I had a piece of square stock on the anvil that fit between the bolt heads on the clamp and used a wider piece to fit between the bolt ends and nuts on the other side so I could hit it without hitting the bolts.

Purists wouldn't DREAM of polluting the craft like this but a LIGHT dusting of borax between layers can really help. When it melts the increasing pressure from the clamp presses the liquid flux out but fills any air gaps and lastly cleans out any debris when you tap it with a hammer.

I've only made a mokume billet a couple times to give it a try. Do NOT combine brass and silver in a billet, they make silver solder with a silly low melting temp, you'll end up with that puddle of metallic clinker goop in your forge. I tried this for funsies too, one layer of silver between two layers of brass and sure enough it melted at black heat, maybe 600 f.? 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

Like this, and make sure the plates are at least 3/8 inch thick

[Chimaera]

Ok. That makes sense. Does it need to be wide enough to clear the face of your anvil? So that the plates and not the nuts are touching? I can try to make that, I just need to find some plate, as the only stuff I have lying around is galvanized... Frosty, I don't have the money to buy a piece of silver, so no worries there! However, you suggest a little bit of borax? (I won't tell the purists  )

Sorry for not understanding the first time around, and thank y'all for your help. I assume the plate and screw assembly is reusable? If so, I can try to degalvanize my steel and make one. 

[George N. M.]

You probably don't care about whether the bolt heads clear the anvil because you will not be hitting the clamp.  The nuts and bolts are providing the pressure, not a hammer blow.  You don't even need an anvil or a hammer around.  You can also put your stack in a vise and tighten it up as tight as you can cold before putting the plates and clamps on.

Also, another metal you can use for a silver color is "german" silver which is relatively inexpensive.  If you can get it, I'd use bronze before I'd use brass to avoid the zinc.  "Golden" dollar coins may be a source of a yellow metal. 

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."