What did you do in the shop today?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Jim very nice candle sticks. One way to make them convertible from candle sticks to tea light candles is to make short cup candle stick holders, held to the existing base with strong small rare earth magnets. then remove them for tea light candles.

I made a single candle stick like that a long time ago and it worked a treat. Sorry I didn't think to take a picture.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[JHCC]

A spike that screws into a threaded socket also works. 

[Nobody Special]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:00 AM, Wandering_R0gue said:

If I were to temper this back fir a couple hours, it would have no hardness whatsoever.... I generally find, Mayne an hour MAX for the blades I've made in the past. Why would you "retemper" a second time? 

As I recall, I picked this up from a few treatises on heat treatment, a book or four, including I think Mr. Sells book, and old conversations with blacksmiths on the site. As I recall it had to do with transitioning austenite to martensite, and I have some really lovely diagrams of this over time that I can't find for the life of me. I used to read everything I could find on metallurgy, but I'm only getting back into forging and casting after being out of the game for a few years, so I'm a bit rusty on the technical whys and wherefores sometimes. I feel like there was a section on it in The New Edge of the Anvil.

On a more practical note, the main reason I recommend it is that after it was suggested, I tried it and found that it worked much better than with blades that I did a quick heat treat by reheating a blade briefly with a torch or the forge, or by retaining heat in a thicker part of the metal and allowing it to run back into the steel to reach an oxide color, although admittedly that way is fun and feels more like you are performing fine art or black magic.

Color is not a great way to gauge temper over longer heat treatment cycles because although the metal doesn't soften further, the oxide layer causing coloration builds up, so instead of straw, you may end up with blue, purple, or colors that would normally indicate higher tempers.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, but if your blade isn't hard after two two-hour heat cycles at 400 to 450 degrees, then it was never fully hardened to begin with. Your forge work and blade profile is nice enough that it deserves a proper heat treatment to match. Give my way a shot; don't even worry about risking a blade on it, just a thin coupon or bar about the same thickness as a knife will do. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost anything but a little electricity and time.

Normalize two or three times (i.e. heat to non-magnetic and then let cool to air temp), then heat to 100 degrees past non-magnetic, quench in oil, if not hard with a file test (i.e. file skates and makes a glassy sound), try again with ever more aggressive quenches (water, brine, super-quench) until it is. Put in at 400 to 450 for two hours, let it sit overnight, do it again, call it a day. Best of luck to you.

[Wandering_R0gue]

I may have done past tempers at too high a heat... I think I had tried at lower temps and hadn't gotten the color draw I wanted, so went hotter. That is on past attempts though. 

[JHCC]

29 minutes ago, Nobody Special said:

the oxide layer causing coloration builds up, so instead of straw, you may end up with blue, purple, or colors that would normally indicate higher tempers.

This is why it’s good to scrub the temper color/oxide layer off the workpiece between tempering cycles if you’re using them to judge temperature, such as when running temper colors on a punch. 

[Wandering_R0gue]

I thought this was supposed to be a resource for people to ASK questions and seek answers from there in the space? If not, then why are any of us here? 

I recognize experience, and was simply stating mine, and asking questions so as to better understand. 

Everyone was a beginner once... and very often, the problems I find with forums like this, is that there is co flicting information, Everyone is convinced that THEIR way is the right way, and instead of trying to explain something it devolves into an argument... 

Really makes it discouraging for any new makers to want to engage. 

Just my opinion, I take no offense at anyone else. 

On 10/31/2023 at 2:51 PM, Frosty said:

NO, it would NOT. You had the temp set too high.

You REALLY need to do some reading in the Iforge heat treatment section. Maybe buy Steve's book or perhaps Jim Hrisolis's or one of the REAL bladesmiths who make their living at making good blades. You can find a lit in the IFI blade section. 

Forget Youtube, or the blogs, etc. The ONLY qualifications necessary to be a Youtube expert is a camera and ISP connection. Same for a Blog entry.

I've had enough of this thread, I'm not going to argue with someone who asks a question and doesn't bother to read the answers. I have better things to do. MUCH better.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Jim86]

Irondragon, that's a great idea with the magnets.

[jlpservicesinc]

8 hours ago, Wandering_R0gue said:

I thought this was supposed to be a resource for people to ASK questions and seek answers from there in the space? If not, then why are any of us here? 

I recognize experience, and was simply stating mine, and asking questions so as to better understand. 

Everyone was a beginner once... and very often, the problems I find with forums like this, is that there is co flicting information, Everyone is convinced that THEIR way is the right way, and instead of trying to explain something it devolves into an argument... 

Really makes it discouraging for any new makers to want to engage. 

Just my opinion, I take no offense at anyone else. 

 

Metal working even today "With all the understanding" is still an archaic undertaking.. 

Everyone learns and retains information differently and this is reflected in what the person posts or shares.. 

Someone who is a Metallurgist "working on hardening of carbon steels" would be able to give you the "cleanest" explanation within reason based on what is important to them and then the ability to bring it down in a way that can be understood from a very basic way.   With this said, most won't go into the details needed to truly understand "why and what for".. 

Every book I have read on heat treatment covers the subject from the person's perspective.. 

It's best to read a few books on the subject and then start to see how the information from each source links together. 

I own 10 books on metallurgy 5 old books from 1900's or turn of and 5 modern books..  

I enjoy the 1900's books more vs the newer books but they speak to me better in a language that makes more sense.. They are written more plainly.. 

The Modern books..  Knife Steel Nerds has 2 great books out.  "The story of knife steel" and "Knife Engineering: Steel, Heat Treating, and Geometry".    Great website as well.. 

Interestingly I will jot down and buy any books the authors reference as their favorites..  

Tool Steels Properties and Performance by Rafael Mesquita is one  Larrin mentioned..  I've thumbed it.. Still have to read it. 

On that note..  IIRc also referenced another book that I have been reading and it's fantastic about the items not talked about in detail in other books..  And that is why of the quench and time the quench takes as well as the reasons behind different times with oils and quench media..  

It's the information I have been looking for over the last 10 years so is a very interesting read with the information I have not found elsewhere..   "Tool steels 4th edition" George Roberts and Robert Cary.. American Society for Metals. 

Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel. Dr. Verhoeven

As a regular blacksmith I only need to know at what temperature the metal is hardneable..  I then also need to know at what color in tempering the hardened metal needs to be to give the best service. 

Very much A, B, C..   This worked fine for thousands of years..  

But, this is different today and with the ease of finding information even with limited understanding or limited retention this is what we have on forums and such.. 

Simple works for me..  

But, I'm also interested in the deeper aspects of Bainite and other properties of which are not main stream.. 

So the research to find the answers is all on me.. 

Keep in mind it's only as complex as others make it be..  And people will always share from their perspective. 

If working with metals (carbon steels) were as complex and as precise as they are made out to be by some.  Then it would be impossible to hand forge anything never mind heat treat anything without complete and utter failure every time unless done in a laboratory.. 
 

[gewoon ik]

It all depends what you want as well. As a maker and a consumer (or your type of consumer).

You have people who really like to enjoy and take the max out of the steel in terms of hardness, toughness, ... and invest in a good heat treatmentoven, special oils, ...

And you have people who takes it a good enough level. Yes the steel could be harder, tougher, flexible, ... but it is consistance and easy to achieve in their shop.

So that also affects the info you recieve and want to recieve.

[jlpservicesinc]

Gewoon ik..    Desire..  Ah desire..   Here in lies the thing..  

for any of it..  Action, learning, etc, etc..  A person has to have a desire..  As children we are forced to go to school to learn..  some have desire and some do not.. 

Once we are on our own for nearly everything we do.. It takes a desire.. A want or longing..  

Your statement reiterates the main stream sentiment..     "Knowledge" can and will give you the best product.. 

Sure..  If you are in academia..  or a scientific environment.  

20 years ago very few people  owned Heat treatment ovens..   somehow for over 4000 years items were produced day in and day out that was even by today's standards superior in one way or the other.. 

Does it mean they are superior to what technology dictates as superior..     it all depends.. 

This is the aspect that befundles most people..      "It all depends"..     

This list of "depends" is based on opinion, testing standards, etc, etc.. 

WE hand forge metals..   The metals themselves have built in faults..  No matter how cleanly they are made they have inclusions and other ingredients that influence the materials.. 

" There is a best practice"..       And I feel this " best practice" is about as good as it gets..    

One can not enforce the information into a person..     Even when shown there is a better way. people will still for the most part choose a 50/50 pattern or some percentage there of.. 

If knowledge is what someone is after then whether it can be applied successfully or not really becomes the ticket. 

And your are right..  

[Latticino]

Wanted to finish up these Parkinson style tongs and since the forge was hot, nocked out a shoe horn for my new boots that are still a bit tight.  Love making tools.  Even played around with a little filework and chasing on the tongs.  Obviously need a bit more practice on that, but I was rushinga nd we all have to start somewhere.

Here is the back side of the shoe horn.  On reflection I should have made the transition a little more carefully with my set hammer to keep it centered, but the nice edges on my Fisher are pretty effective...

[JHCC]

Very nice!

[gewoon ik]

Parkinson tongs? They are a bit shacky?

But a serieus question now, what are they?

[Latticino]

Sorry,  these are bladesmithing tongs that are similar to/inspired by the ones that Matt Parkinson makes.  I just wanted to give him credit for the basic design.

[gewoon ik]

Ah ok, like Poz tongs.

 

[BillyBones]

When i make candle holders i will make a cup out of sheet or use a duplex nail for a spike. The sheet can be worked cold into shape.

The nail i grind the top head off of to make the spike, then cut the shank to length i need. I made a header that goes in my vice to pein the spike down and lock it in place. 

The cup is an old one i did not use. I bent it back open to get an idea of how i cut the sheet. I then use a socket to bend it to shape. 

The candle holder is an example of how i set the spike. 

[JHCC]

Gotta love duplex nails.

[Savlaka]

Made some gate hinges today. Still gotta make the handle and latch, but these seem to work good.

The strap portion is made from a 3/8 wall 1026 DOM tubing. 2x 1" sections I cut, flattened, and shaped before welding on another smaller 11/16" ID tube for the hinge point. 1026 DOM tubing is nice since I can be hardened somewhat to increase it's resistance to bending. - not a lot but noticably springy after treatment...

The hinge pin plates are entirely fabricated with the MiG welder, mild steel plates and a section of 1060 11/16” rod.

All the parts were cleaned up and then tempered / colored to get that nice somewhat dark bronzy color. And I sealed them with a clear enamel paint.

 

On the subject of forums and asking  for information:

I looked a a number of different forums before deciding on this one. All forums have their spats of "experts" with different ways of doing something, that's one thing you can't get away from. It happens in person as well as online... One of the reasons I decided on I forge iron vs others is that their is a wide variety of smiths on here. With that you'll inevitably end up with some pissing contests, But there's likely someone who is closer to your style of work, or is easier for you to understand their methods - and that can be priceless...

A Method, process or style one person does for getting a project done might be viewed as backwards by another person, but if it gets the results that they are looking for then that's the right method for them - Even if their methods are technically inferior in some way. There's some chasing "perfection" and others just after "Good enough" neither are right or wrong, just different goals.

[M3F]

Nicely done.

[bluerooster]

As to the heat treatment of metals, The Machinery Handbook is a very good resource.  Especially an older copy that still has blacksmith info in it.

   Those candle holders are pretty neat , I'm gonna have to try my hand at that.

But first I guess I'll have to overhaul the old Champion #140. I think it may need a thrust washer, or new bearings.  When I crank it, the fan moves out and the blades tink on the housing.  And it's been leaking oil pretty bad too.  May tear into it this weekend and see what is up with it.  The gears that I can see with the top removed, appear to be in good shape.

[Nobody Special]

As far as it goes, Mr. Rogue, I think you would like my method of heat treatment and would encourage you to try it once or twice, but not going to cry myself to sleep you don't. Ask four blacksmiths how to do something and you'll get six answers. At least two of them will be grouchy. One of my favorite heat treat methods to date was the one in the Weygers book where they drove the blade edge into a piece of fruit, leaving the spine uncovered (and soft). In the meantime, I'm glad you're enjoying smithing. Sorry if I stirred something up.

Latticino, those are lovely and graceful curves, a pretty bit of work.

It's been coming down cats and dogs in my work area yesterday and today, (wind and rain going sideways) so all I did was make some new tuyere covers (i.e. I cut and ground up some stainless-steel sawblades into circles and drilled holes). On redesigning for charcoal, I was going to replace my 55/brake disc forge with a JABOD forge in a more trench-ish shape, but now I'm thinking maybe stay with a gentler bottom blast and fill the top with a clay sand mix to turn it into more of a trench, with a couple of dirt/adobe walls to give it a trench shape in the middle for a deeper charcoal fire.

Sure, they might not last forever, but they would be easy to move or rebuild as needed. As a forge, it's neither fish, nor foul, nor good red meat, but I think it should work well and save fuel. Call it a just-a-55/brake-disk-of-dirt forge. JA55OD, and if I don't like it, back to a more conventional design.

 

[Jim86]

Billy, good idea on the duplex nails, can't say I have seen them here but I will have to find some.

Latticino, those are pretty cool looking tongs.

Savlaka, nice strong hinges, I like the temper colours too.

Jim.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

13 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

 "Knowledge" can and will give you the best product.. 

You can lead some people to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[Latticino]

Thanks all for the lovely and thoughtful responses. 

Sometimes all we can see in our own work is the flaws.  Good when it spurs us on to work harder towards our goals, but it can also be disheartening.  I also applaud the range of skills, interests and perspectives that we enjoy on this forum and in the blacksmithing community in general.  I appreciate the support.

[BillyBones]

Jim, check your local building supply. They are used for nailing something up temporary. Like a brace holding a wall in place or something. Well, that is what they were made for. They also make good nails to hang pictures and i saw some one once use them to do i think it was stucco, could have been plaster, but put them in the wall to give the stucco something to grip and hold to. Like anything, what ever i can imagine to use it for i will use it. 

I know a lot of people here* if i was to show one to would not have ever seen one either. They are not the most common thing to come across in the garage. 

*Edit: Here, i meant around where i live not on the site. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by BillyBones
clarification