Time materials and hammer time

[Forgingforfun]

Let's base this on all aspects, tapering , riveting, twisting, collaring,  forge welding, etc... to get to a level where your work is presentable.   Example....100 hours hammer time, 100 bucks in material, 300 bucks in fuel costs. I'm making a analogy to the fire triangle,  heat,  fuel and oxygen has to exist for fire. What's your thoughts??

[Frosty]

My thought after reading THAT question is you need to learn a lot more about the craft before you try and quantify things. Honestly I don't know what you're asking.

How long to make a dinner triangle? Not one of the aspects listed effect that, let alone ALL OF THEM. 

Seriously that's a disjointed jumble of . . . things, unanswerable in a meaningful way.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Forgingforfun]

Totally disagree with your response, it's that simple time vs material vs fuel to GET to a presentable presentation of work done wheres YOUR pics of work done??? How nice is it and how much time n material , fuel did it take to get to that level?

You still love me? Why cant we all get along. Seriously I want the total answer of what u feel takes to get to a presentable level for your work, labor fuel and metal please..

[Steve Sells]

this is gonna be fun, glad I have lots of popcorn

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I'll stay out of this one.

[Forgingforfun]

I'm game

[Frosty]

Disagree all you like you still haven't asked a question that can be answered.  

IF you can compose a cogent, question I'll do my best to answer it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Forgingforfun]

Who's got the pop corn? I want to forge a railroad spike bottle opener, cut off point, fuller down forge out, punch, drift ,punch tab decorate with ballpien texture, time to forge slit, drive drifts punch tab spike.was free,3bucks a hour, that's what i need 0to make item

My guess is one hour,3

,3.5 lbs charcoal 

al

[Glenn]

I will take the bait (grin)

To make a 10 inch on a side triangle, you need one stick of 3/8 round bar ($20 or so).  One Harbor Freight 12 inch hacksaw ($4.99).  Fuel cost zero, ($0.00) bend it cold . Hammer time zero, no hammer used.  All aspects, tapering , riveting, twisting, collaring,  forge welding, etc... zero, not used.

Total cost $25.00 for the first one.  For the next 4 ea. 10 inch triangles, the cost is zero as you already have the material and hacksaw. If you move slow you could do all 5 in well under an hour.  $10.00 per hour divided by 5 is $2.00  That makes the total expense $7.00 per triangle.

If you run the alleys and check the dumpsters you can source metal for free. That means you have just the hacksaw and labor involved and reduces the total cost to $15 (saw plus labor) or $3.00 each. 

[George N. M.]

Dear FFF,

Like the answer to many questions, I would say, "It depends."  The first variable is what is "presentable."  In some situations pretty crude and rough is presentable.  In others it is highly finished and "pretty."

The biggest skill, IMO, to developing a reasonable level of skill in black smithing or any any other craft is hand/eye coordination.  Some people, particularly younger folk, can learn the hand/eye coordination of a new skill pretty quickly.  For others it takes more time.  And, unfortunately, some people have a very hard time acquiring the motor skills necessary to master a new skill.  So, it is difficult to quantify how long it will take an "average" person to become "presentably" proficient.

Also, the re is the acquisition of mental knowledge and information such as basic metallurgy, fire/forge management, 3-dimensional visualization to convert a blank piece of metal into a finished object, knowledge of finishes, etc..

And it depends on what skill you regularly use.  I am pretty good at certain processes, having done them for 40+ years but there are others which I do not use very often where I am minimally skilled. 

So, to say how long it takes any individual to reach the level of journeyman smith is nearly impossible because of all the variables.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Judging by the knowledge you exhibit with your questions I'd say it'll probably take you about a year to make a presentable bottle opener. However if you were to stop trying to convince everybody you're smarter than you are you'll probably pick up the necessary skills more quickly. Jumbling all those processes together on a simple project is most likely going to cost you a bunch in buying legal RR spikes to get one. 

If you REALLY want to know how long it takes you, start making things and keep notes. Include the things you think important. What possible good can it do YOU to audit MY work? Not that it's any of your concern in the first place it won't do you one bit of good. If you bid jobs based on my skills you'd end up owing the customers money.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Sells]

If he  makes one himself, he would know what  it takes to make one

[George N. M.]

One more thing that I didn't mention earlier but sort of implied:  How fast, shallow, or steep is any individual's learning curve for a particular object.  The first widget any of us makes takes awhile, the 2d a little shorter time, and the 75th is pretty fast if the person hasn't burned out from boredom around #30.  There are things, e.g. a wall hook which have a short, shallow learning curve.  There are others, e.g. a beautiful pattern welded blade, which have a long and steep learning curve.  So, as with much of anything in this world, it depends.

Also, and I'm wearing my Uncle George hat here, IMO there has been too much of an odor of snarkiness in this thread.  I can be as curmudgeonly and snarky as anyone when I give into the temptation but it is something I try to resist.  A few of the virtues of IFI are the friendliness, welcoming attitude, and tolerance of basic/stupid questions.  My advice, which I don't always follow myself, is if someone is irritating, ignore them.  Life is too short to rise to every chance to be grumpy.  One of my goals in this life is never to be thought of or give evidence of being an angry, old, White guy.  I have known/know too many of these and it cannot be a happy way to live.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."  

[Frosty]

You're right George, I started out just being direct and let myself get caught up in the foolishness. My bad, thanks for the swift kick. 

 Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

Frosty,

Not a swift kick but maybe a gentle nudge.  Besides, WWAD? (What would Abby Do?)

G

[pnut]

Did anyone mention the time to forge the tools you'll need to forge the bottle opener?

[Chris C]

Well, not being snarky or curmudeonly,  I tried to decipher the original question "thinking" I understood it.  I tried 3 times and every time I realized I still didn't understand the question so I erased it.  My responses were coming out a bit like Frosty's.  (Oh, and Frosty loves everyone and is one of the many on this forum who will go to great lengths to help you.)  As this thread has progressed, I think I really did understand the question when I first posted and probably should have answered it.  My answer was in line with George's concerning "just how steep is your learning curve". 

In my younger years I made my living as a classical violinist.  But when I was a teenager, just struggling to learn how to play the violin, I used to donate my time as an usher at the symphony to gain a free ticket to the monthly concert.  So I was always inside the building prior to the performance.  Long story short, I realized with my usher's pass I could gain access to the building as early as I liked and could sit quietly and listen to performers rehearse.  On one occasion my "idol" at the time, Michael Rabin, was running through some scales and playing some segments of the Meditation from the opera Thais............which was something I was studying at the time.  As he finished a particularly difficult passage he looked down from the stage and realized I was sitting on the front row intently listening and watching.  He asked if I played and instrument.  I told him I did indeed and was working on that very piece of music.  In my naivete' I asked him how long it was going to take me to learn how to play that passage as cleanly and effortlessly as he had just done.  I imagine inside his head he was answering "oh brother"...............but what he said was simple.  "It depends on how much work you are willing to put into playing it the way I just did."  With that he walked off the stage. 

There is no set "how many hours of hammer time, how much coal/fuel will I use" kind of formula to figure out when your output will be presentable.  As George said..........."It Depends".

[anvil]

Time to forge "presentable" work?

There used to be a 7 year apprenticeship. 

I'd say that's pretty close to grasp our tools and technique

 

[Frosty]

9 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Besides, WWAD? (What would Abby Do?)

Didn't have to kick me again George. A nudge is as good as a kick to a thick head. Not having kids of my own I don't have practice or much experience dealing with teenage contempt. I'm afraid I let his, "You still love me?" comment stir me up. Even then I TRIED to answer his question. Foolish of me I know.

My bad, I offer my apology to the forum, no excuse.

 Frosty The Lucky.

[Chris C]

It's hard to answer an antagonistic question sanely, Frosty.  You owe no-one on this forum an apology.

[George N. M.]

Frosty:  I really did not mean to kick you again.  I thought the Abby comment would make you smile whistfully.  Abby has sounded like she was a magical, gentle soul who would never be irritated or snappy.  I meant to invoke that wonderful personality in how to deal with irritating persons.  I'm sorry I picked at a scab that is still raw.

G.

[Frosty]

I know what you intended George, I meant that in jest, a little play on, "A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse." Yes? 

No scab picked Brother, thinking of Abby in the good days always makes me feel better. I should put a picture of her next to my comp so I'll see her smiling face before responding in kind to the . . . Nevermind. 

You done good, thank you. Sincerely thank you.

 Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

A lot depends on what skills you have when you start blacksmithing.  I've taught a bunch of new folks over the years; folks who have hammer skills already tend to have that part easier---like a carpenter who was a framer.  What he had to develop was an "eye" for what looks good. Others had a great "eye"; but not the hand skills to turn the steel into what they could see.  You can become an S hook and bottle opener production smith a lot sooner than doing Tijou quality gates.

Doing my simple "get them hooked" class of making a simple S hook with a twist; I've had folks make stuff I would be proud to sell in their first 4 hour class. I've had folks who only walked off with an usable S hook because I would step in and fix some major blunders. I've had folks that did great with oversight and hints; but the next one on their own was a sad sad example. Every once in a while you get a student that teaching them is like tossing gasoline on a fire---WOOOSH!---and you just see their tailights in the distance. Some folks need more time yet still go on to do great work. One of my ex-students had really never worked with his hands. His parents wanted him to be a Rabbi.  Well he's a professional smith now and I try to avoid places where his relations may live...

The other thing is that *each* new item you work on may include a learning and experimentation period.  I've welded a number of billets and forge welding seems easy to me; but I had to work out forging flowers out of thin sheet metal. I've progressed enough that my third one is so much better than my first that I have to replace the first one, even though it was good enough to sell, to make the grouping good enough to give to my wife.

I remember a quote that: "to become good at forging a particular item you should expect to have to make at least 6 of them." (And that's with working to do each one *better* than the last one! Plain repetition can make you faster; but it won't make you *better* without putting in the effort!)

[wirerabbit]

I applaud your question. You are thinking. The crafts need thinkers as well as doers. That being said, I feel the analogy is getting in the way. The "fire" triangle is a qualitative relationship between three things,  just a simple way of assessing the possibility of a fire: have fuel, have ignition source, have an oxidizer, have fire. The triangle doesn't tell you how much fire you will have nor how hot the fire will get or how long it will burn. That would come with experience. Still you would be making a guess. Same with any craft and its product. You know more as you go along.

I understand trying to calculate how much of this and that it would take to reach a goal. We like goals. Goals are good. BUT, and I must agree with many in the manual arts, a beginner's time is not the same as a journeyperson's time, is not the same as an expert's time. So comparisons across craftspeople are nearly meaningless. Maybe this is why beginners are the ones usually asking this type of question, and the old salts are unlikely to ask such things.

Now, understanding what it takes you to produce an identifiable object, say a bottle opener, and comparing it to the next time you attempt to make THAT VERY SAME bottle opener *is* in fact a tried and true method of charting progress and effectiveness as a maker. Armed with this type of information, a maker can determine, among other things, cost per unit in her inventory and decide if making such an item is cost effective.

I'll give an example based on trying to make money at this thing. My latest coal rake took me 3 hours to make, consumed half a bag of charcoal, and about 30 inches of 5/8 " round, hot rolled mild steel. If I set aside fuel and material cost and just pay myself a hypothetical, pitiful minimum wage (did I mention that makers like us, even the good ones, seldom make money approaching USA minimum wage?) of US$ 10 an hour, I should be able to quickly notice a few things. One: aint nobody going to drop $30 for that coal rake. It's ugly. And Two: I need to be faster at making that item. This exercise can go on and on. You see now why many replies seemed a bit exasperated by the question. Quite a bit goes into a calculation like that.

What seems to be more difficult to calculate is *quality* of work. And quality of work it one of those things that both the amateur and the entrepreneur concern themselves with. One may not ever wish to sell the things she or he makes, but those things need to look good, be of excellent quality. Assessments such as these can be a bit of a mystery as quality, while influenced by one's cadre of makers in the area, still exhibits much wiggle room. Again, judging takes experience, and still it can be a guess. More experience should equal better assessments and closer guesses.

If the question is how much hammer time, and fuel cost, and material cost does it take to make a presentable bottle opener, it is an interesting question to debate, but it is the wrong question. For many of the crafts, materials are the smallest outlay of capitol, so in a sense of least concern. I would posit that the maker's time is the most valuable of her assets, followed by means of production (tools, helpers). You can then start listing all the other ancillary items of running a business, but materials will be well down the list. This may not be true of all makers, but it is certainly true for blacksmithing.

I am not attempting to speak for blacksmithing here specifically, but as I am a potter for, let's say two decades and leave it at that--no need to extrapolate age or anything here, I know what is truly the most valuable and therefore what should be guarded and nurtured the most: Time DOING the craft. In the beginning focus on the doing: the messing up and the redoing, and the experimenting and the evaluating of the process.

There [mike drop]

 

Taylor, near Jeddo TX