Anvil horror

[BartW]

Hello All;

 

Well; after I've shed some tears, I've found a destroyed anvil. I was looking for anvils as usual; but I let this one go ... as it's essentially destroyed. 

But there's a lesson here: NEVER mill the face of an anvil. Even grinding is nope (except in case where you know what you're doing).

The pics below say enough. You can even see where base comes peeking through the top plate. Also very strange horn shape.

Probably someone who found this (good) anvil; but wanted to sell it for 'new', and had access to a large mill; so he probably milled off most of the top plate.  Sad ... 

[Stash]

Wow, that's a shame. Glad you knew better than to buy that abomination.

Steve

[Kozzy]

I just want to slap people sometimes.  So many posts (elsewhere) from people who plan on "fixing" what is already a perfectly serviceable anvil by milling, grinding, or welding that I have almost given up trying to explain why that's a bad idea.  The other one that comes up often is "welding those worn edges so I can grind 'em nice and square again".  Ugh.

If you want a brand new looking anvil, buy a brand new anvil.  Save the repairs (if one *must* try such a thing) for real basket cases that are already far beyond the usable stage.  No matter how you say that some places, it seems to fly right over people's heads and some dolt chimes in about grinding those (minor) dings down and tossing on some weld bead.

Can you tell it frustrates me?   Hard subject not to get tossed off the forum for using lots of expletive words regarding.  I'll just say "Golly that's a sad anvil in the photo" and do my swearing out loud.

[tanglediver]

 

 

[Bob Brandl]

You know what makes me want to slap people? People whining and fussing about what other people decide to do with their tools, and stating opinion as gospel truth. I'll grant that whoever worked on that anvil does appear to have wrecked it, but that was their decision and they have to live with it. I've done more than a few repairs on anvils and other blacksmithing tools, and more than a few of those times I've used a mill or grinder. Should someone work with mills, grinders, or other cutting/grinding/welding tools without knowing what they're doing and the particulars of what they're working on? No, of course not. But if someone knows what they're doing, or knows someone who does, it's a perfectly valid way to fix something/clean something up, as is welding up an anvil face or corners if necessary. It's a shame about that anvil, but it's not your problem to deal with, it's theirs.

[pnut]

2 hours ago, Bob Brandl said:

I'll grant that whoever worked on that anvil does appear to have wrecked it, but that was their decision and they have to live with it.

I do agree that people can do whatever they want to do to their property and it's really no ones business. In this particular case though ,they're not living with it ,they're trying to sell it to someone who may or may not know how much damage has been done to it. Hopefully they're being honest with whomever they're trying to sell it to.  I use a vertical rail and am happy to have it, but I would like to have a German or London pattern anvil ,so it  does make me a little bummed to see an anvil that might have been usable turned into something unusable. Oh well there's more anvils out there. I just have to go out and look for them.

Pnut

[BartW]

Well it isn't mine, and given it's not my property the owners can do with it pretty much what they want. It's just sad. Especially when It might have been usefull for someone searching for an anvil. 

[jlpservicesinc]

Education and the ease to good information and hence knowledge is so easy today that anyone ruining such a piece of history is well a travesty.  Owner, not owner who ever..  Would someone take a piece made a few hundred years ago and cut it into pieces..  LOL..  This is a joke of sorts as there are many, many pieces of history everyday that are ruined both by personal arrogance and in search of something better or to make better. 

Historically people were smarter in certain aspects vs today though we all have access to more information than ever.  Common sense being one of them.. I am not a smart person. but, my interests have lead to hours and hours of information searches. 

I have said it time and time again. I hate to see a piece of history.  anvils, vises, forges, steam engines, water turbines, dams, etc, etc, etc destroyed but it is human nature. Instead of fixing or keeping existing infrastructure it's easier to spend on new ,mentally.  

Prosperity does strange things.  Do with, instead of without..  this past weekend I spent time at the NEB fall meet and had the choice of 8 different anvils. LOL.  I chose the one that was swayed back like a camel but was quite..    It had 2 flat spots. What more does one need.  This is what I made. 

 

[Nobody Special]

You could take a Monet and cut it up for dishrags too if you owned it, but I would still consider it a darn shame.  Milling that down like that is NOT a fix, and they didn't know what they were doing.  Heck, it doesn't even look like they milled the bottom first so that it was level.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

13 hours ago, Bob Brandl said:

if someone knows what they're doing, or knows someone who does,

That my dear children sums up the problem, so many do not know what they are doing and are too lazy to research the subject. It also applies to life in general. 

[MC Hammer]

When I got my first anvil I was so happy and sent pictures of it to my friend who was a farrier.  He said "Not bad, but you need to take that to a machine shop and get the surface milled flat and the edges squared up."  Luckily, I'd been reading everything I could on anvils including everything here and I knew better.  My first anvil is the German Trenton I own still and is my main anvil.  Think of the history I would have ruined on the advice of someone I thought knew a great deal on the subject.  

I think today there's the mindset that when you start smithing you need perfect tools.  This is how an anvil should look pervades the thoughts of the newbie smith.  Like Jennifer touched on, we've forgotten how to make do with used things.  Many things are ruined this way.

Yes, I agree, you paid for a tool and it's yours but how short sighted.  How many smiths fed their families off my German Trenton?  They got that thing with all its blemishes and accepted them as part of it being a used tool then they got to work to feed their families.  How arrogant would I be to turn my nose up at the slight sway and other minor issues?  I'd say very arrogant if I'd decided to make it "perfect" when for 130 years that anvil serviced the needs of others yet somehow it reaches me and it's not good enough.  I'm just the most recent caretaker of that anvil and it's my duty to pass it on to someone someday with all my history of use.  

 

[ThomasPowers]

Some folks believe it's perfectly alright to try to get more money out of a deal by lying to a naive customer; after all they are adults. (Cheating kids is just reprehensible!) Others believe you should be fair in your dealings with others.  I prefer to associate with fair folk.

I also believe that you do with YOUR own property is your business;  but don't expect to pawn off your mistakes on others!  I've had to eat losses when I've made mistakes and prefer that to misleading others.

[pnut]

Here,here Thomas. Well said. Unfortunately it's ok in a lot of folks books to do just that and pawn off their mistakes on others for as much money as possible. Their reasoning usually is ," I'm just trying to recoup as much of my investment as possible." , but I agree Thomas mistakes should have consequences. My granny used to tell me," The world would be a better place if being stupid wasn't so cheap." 

Pnut

[Chris C]

I've just returned from Silver Dollar City where I watched their local blacksmith do a demo.  He had a really nice looking, 200 pound Haybudden.  When I commented on how well he'd taken care of it, he said "you should have seen it when we got it............all the edges were knocked off."  Said they'd taken it to a welder who welded up all the edges and ground them back so they were nice and square.  His comment was "too many people say you ruin an anvil by doing that, but this anvil has been in use for 10 years now with no ill effects."  Said that too many "anvil snobs" say it's ruined.  Then I watched him try and make a keychain leaf that any first time hammer handler could have made 10 times better. (Everything in his shop looked as if it were something I'd made...........and I've only worked on an anvil 6 or 7 evenings!!!!!)   With that, I walked away from his demo. 

 

Chris

[jlpservicesinc]

I'm not chastising nor am I saying good nor bad. 

One of the things that I had to look at no matter how skilled I was is there is always another way despite someones skill level. 

I Love watching a capable smith and will also make suggestions if the person is open to them at a lower level, asking if I can step in an do a show and tell.  But, I always watch what others are doing vs saying as this is a great way to learn despite what maybe said.  I used to be a mare that chomped at the bit with impatience and now I simply look at it as another opportunity to learn. 

I've learned more for the Newbie then from long time smiths because they have a fresh approach. 

Welding if done right will not ruin an anvil. It can add another 300 years of life.. 

Hay Budden anvils of the 2 piece construction are my favorites as there is no faceplate to come loose.  I don't have the skill set nor the facility to weld on a new face plate but i can and have beaten the face of an anvil back into shape while heated up and hardened with good results but most don't have this ability.  

So, with todays welding rods and a little know how it's great to see an anvil brought back to full service. 

[Anachronist58]

19 hours ago, MC Hammer said:

sent pictures of it to my friend who was a farrier.  He said "Not bad, but you need to take that to a machine shop..... 

I think today there's the mindset that when you start smithing you need perfect tools........   Like Jennifer touched on, we've forgotten how to make do with used things. 

Being an expert marksman DOES NOT a Gunsmith make.

The fact that I am qualified to mill the face of my anvil, does not me, a Farrier make - far from it, indeed.

Being born in the 1950's with parents raised in Texas during the Depression, we learned that the closest to perfect tool was our brains. Our brains were accessorized with imagination, resourcefulness, and perseverance.

That is why, after milling .025" from the face of my 88# Söderfors, it looks like this:

For the life of me, I do not know how the thing became so sad - I have yet to ding it myself.

It is not a breeze to get around some times, but for one-offs, my brain and practice yield the desired results. A radiused hardy block is eager to help for production repeatability.

As far as slapping goes I slap myself, lest others slap me.

Robert Taylor

Edited September 23, 2019 by Anachronist58
Post Assembly

[Kozzy]

Because I've been a bit ripped over the clearly hyperbolic "slapping" comment, I'll clarify a little.  People often seem a LOT more concerned about an anvil's cosmetic issues than actual use issues, commonly due to lack of research and experience.  Rather than use the anvil to see if there is actually a problem, they assume that it must *look* newish to perform well and go to town on "repairs" before a hammer even touches it.  They get so focused on look that they seem to forget it's a tool to be used.  Like the 100 ways to build a terrible forge videos on Youtube, there are always plenty of other poorly informed contributors who are happy to imply to the owner of a new anvil that they must do the cosmetic improvements or the anvil will be effectively unusable and little but a boat anchor without slapping on 5 pounds of soft weld bead.

I stand by my abbreviated version of the metaphorical  "I want to slap some sense into them".  Don't fix stuff until you are positive it actually needs fixin', especially when you might be doing more harm than good to an old beauty.  

But as was said, it's their anvil and they can do whatever they want with it including ruin it.

[pnut]

My motto is... if it ain't broke, I'll fix it till it is.

Pnut

 

[jlpservicesinc]

I never did post the photo of what I made on that swayed back anvil. So here it is.  Had I known this thread would have came up. I would have taken photo's of the anvil too. 

Skill dictates what full possibility is. 

It is not the tools or the equipment that make an item outstanding. It is the person doing the work..... !!!!!!!!!!

 

Where a perfect anvil comes into play is when you move into a professional realm where each divet in the anvils face is a problem for the finished work. 

"Time" is the cost with damaged faces. 

I stated it as damaged faces to make a particular point. 
 

In the olden days anything of value was in mint shape. A smith whose work were perfect and his tools were perfect showed the level of proficientcy with his tools and skills. 

If you walked into a shop where the guys tooling was all beat up it would have made you wonder what is the crap the guy was pedaling. 

Don't get me wrong. If the guy who had worn tools and was producing great work. this comes back to my previous statement about it's the skills that dictates the outcome. 

But, as time marched on many believe it's the tools that produce the perfect work vs the person behind the tools.. I see this all the time today. People thinking it's the good tools that produce good work. It's one of the reasons I love going to the NEB meets and using the equipment they have. It lets others see the level that can be achieved. 

Mild steel, welded eye, off center eye,  with rasp only welded onto one side (flat side) As finished (hardened and tempered in water). You can see how flat it is for working on an anvil that was swayed back like a camel.  Again every swayed back anvil has 2 flat spots. 

Anachronist58, that is a sweet anvil.  I'd use the heck out of it. I love the way the sides round away. I miss my old HayBudden for the generously rounded far side corner. Made for easy tapers on scarfs.   these New sharp edged anvils are terrible as the corner is always in the way. 

Because they are new I hesitate to round them back as far as I like and will take me 3 or 5 years to get there. 

[Anachronist58]

38 minutes ago, Kozzy said:

the clearly hyperbolic "slapping" comment, I'll clarify a little.

Personally, I thought your statement was just fine, Kozzy.

And this current post is meant neither to incite nor challenge.

We used to have bronze information plaques and a spring-fed drinking fountain (our version of a Monet) here along the Interstate. Boils my blood every time I see the empty spot.

23 minutes ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Again every swayed back anvil has 2 flat spots. 

Jennifer, you are soooo right!

Robert Taylor

[George N. M.]

Jennifer:  I have always known asymmetric axes as "carpenters hatchets" because you could use them to trip a piece of wood without leaving chop marks.  Around here you occasionally come across large asymmetric broad axes which were used by "tie hacks" to smooth two side of tree trunks for use as railroad ties.  IIRC the helves of these were S shaped so that the tie hack could stand and still have the axe head parallel to the ground.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[jlpservicesinc]

Thats cool.  There are many different names.  Siding down, hewing, etc, etc, etc.  

this is smaller than most and can be pushed pretty easy with the thumb as well as swung.  

The idea behind forging it really is the unknown limits only encounter when one believes there should be a limit. 

Besides it is a neat demo. 

[Chris C]

I just returned from my vacation to Silver Dollar City, Jennifer.  Sat and watched an older gentleman squaring the sides of 20' pine logs.  Silver Dollar City is building a new building in the Timber Frame and Peg method and he's hewing all the  timbers for it.   He was using a rather large flat-sided axe for the process..............and doing a beautiful job.

Chris

[ThomasPowers]

Welding can repair an anvil IF DONE RIGHT.  Most welders don't know the correct method and so their work may cause long term problems.  (See the Gunther/Schuler anvil repair process.)

Milling: I have seen 3 or 4 anvils now that I would have advised milling on the face and dozens that were damaged or ruined by doing so. (A friend had his milled down till the face was too thin to work on; many years later it took around 5 hours for a professional welder using industrial equipment to get it back in working condition at an anvil repair day.)

People making major changes to their tools when they do NOT know much about them but are working from their own or others preconceptions is generally Not a good idea!

[arftist]

I disagree that welding any anvil will improve it...except an already hopeless case. Especially just to build up edges.