Forge burner help please.

[HazenDart]

I am having a very confusing issue. I have built my own forge and burners. I have 0.35 tips and a 0 - 40 psi regulator. My issue is that for some reason I can't get that jet like burn. It doesn't have that jet like sound or pressure. I am at my witts end and I don't know what else to do?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome to IFI...have you read this yet? READ THIS FIRST

Without pictures it will be hard to help. What burner plan did you follow? What size burners?  What type forge?

[HazenDart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqFDRBZZPWQ

See first off I'm new to all of this so please be patient. Secondly, I have been reading this forum and I have had no luck finding a solution. The youtube link is what I followed for the construction of the forge and burners. I'll post a video of the forge running in a minute.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Shouldn't you be asking the person who's instructions you followed?

[Mikey98118]

Unfortunately, there are several bad choices involved in the forge construction shown in that video. The only change that you can use to help yourself now is to the burners.

Go to Ron Reil's burner pages on the Net, and look up my MIG tip upgrade to his drilled gas jets.

[HazenDart]

Thanks mike. Where can I find you MIG tip upgrades?

[Latticino]

Did a quick scan of the forge video.  Doesn't look that bad to me, though I definitely advocate not just sealing the refractory blanket, but putting at least a skim coat of refractory over it for protection.  I've used a single layer of 2" refractory blanket for insulation (as it appeared was used in the video) and it has worked fine for me.  For the size chamber I would expect one 3/4" burner would suffice, but two isn't all bad (though it would certainly be nice to be able to modulate them independently).  I also don't like the video's use of a ball valve for metering gas, but you say you are using a regulator, so if it is a correct selection and working properly you should be fine there also.

It can be difficult to make a clean and centered drilled orifice for a single burner, got to be that much harder for two on the same pipe, even with the tee fitting in between.  If your regulator is working properly, that is most likely your problem, as Mikey indicated.

[HazenDart]

[HazenDart]

I figured out my major issue... Not enough air. I came to this conclusion by taking my burner out and blowing down the air intake and instantly the flame went to what it should me. How can I solve this. It needs more air.

 

[D.Rotblatt]

I assume you have the chokes all the way open (I'm sure you do, but pays to ask).  Did you use tape on the joints?  If so pull the mig tips and make sure they are not clogged...a common problem to get little bits of tape stuck in the tip.  Pays to do that anyway to make sure they are not clogged but if both are acting the same that would be quite a coincidence.  It should be pulling the right air.  Those are 1-1/2 x 3/4 reducer fittings?  You're running at about 5 lbs pressure or so to test? Did you shorten the MIG tips?  if so you probably need to ream them out with a torch tip cleaner.  I seem to keep coming back to the jets....  If they are not blowing, or blowing in the right direction they will not entrain enough air. If you look directly down the burner, are the tips pointing straight down or off to the side?  Once more, both burners are acting exactly the same? 

It is a quandary....

Listen to Mikey....look at Ron Reils site, that is basically what these burners are.

Note - looking at your picture, pull the burners up so they are above the level of the wool.  They will just burn off in time located so far into the forge.

DanR

[HazenDart]

1 hour ago, D.Rotblatt said:

 

I use for the fittings something called pipe dope (recommend buy my heating friend.) I have not trimmed or touch the tips at all. The bell reducers are at 1 1/4 all I could find but I just bought the 1 1/2 today to see if it helps. And the Jets were a little off but I'm correcting that when I replace the bell reducers. The forge burner level was lower then normal because I thought at first that was the issue. I'll keep it above the wool line from now on.

 

[Steve Sells]

your photo shows the air intake nearly closed that could be your problem

[HazenDart]

The picture does but I was testing wide open.

 

[HazenDart]

Update still doesn't work. Tried increasing the bell reducers. No changes. In the video I was using a air compressor to test what would happen if more air was introduced. So I feel it's still lack of air.

[ThomasPowers]

A side question: what are you doing to keep exhaust from being re-run through your burners? As you are in Canada I expect that one day ths forge will get used in a garage and re-running exhaust is a classic way to increase CO output and so; if not excessively ventilated; a possible life hazard.

[timgunn1962]

I can’t see the video.

Not enough air is very similar to too much gas.

Try .030” tips. And I’d get a couple of .024” tips in case you need to go leaner still. 

 

[Buzzkill]

I could see the video.  That's not even close to where you want to be.  I see you have a regulator, but do you have any way to tell how much pressure you are delivering to your burners?  I didn't see a gauge anywhere. 

It is possible that you have pipe dope or burrs at the orifice(s) for your burners.  If the fuel is coming out as more of a spray than a stream it will not induce air properly.  If you do have a stream, but it is not centrally aligned within the mixing tube it will not induce air properly.  If you are not running enough pressure it will not induce air properly.  If you have excess material (pipe dope, burrs, etc.) at the connection between the reducers and the mixing tubes that will create turbulence which will reduce air induction. If the fuel is being delivered too close to the mixing tube that will also reduce the amount of air induced.  Are your fuel delivery tubes located as specified in the burner construction?  Looks like they might be a little deep to me.

Probably the easiest way to check for the alignment and if the fuel delivery is a stream rather than a spray is to run water through the system at a moderate pressure (a garden hose should suffice) and observe the stream from the flame end of the burner.

 

[HazenDart]

Buzz I do not have a gauge id like one but I can't find a regulator that has one online. I also replaced the bell reducers and the MIG ends today and checked again for burrs for derby. To be honest I think I am at the point of scrapping this to go with the T burners. They seem a lot more simple to build. 

[ThomasPowers]

I don't use a gauge to tune my regulators I tune them by eye and ear as gauges tend to get banged around and go off quite easily.  If you want to use a pressure suggested by someone using a different gauge; ask them when was the last time it was calibrated.

[Buzzkill]

Some regulators have a plugged port which is threaded and will accept a pressure gauge.  I can't tell if yours has this option or not.   Regardless, you can always install a "T" fitting  and add a pressure gauge on one leg if you wish.

It's not so much about the actual pressure you are using.  It's to get a general idea and, assuming your gauge doesn't get knocked way out of calibration frequently, be able to quickly return to a setting that worked well for you in the past.  Another reason for a gauge is to make sure the tank you are using does not have a flow limiter installed.  If it does then no matter how much you try to increase the pressure with the regulator, the fittings at the tank may not allow the amount of propane to flow that will make your burners function properly.

Even without a gauge you can increase and decrease the pressure to see what impact that has on the function of your burners.  Although not the ideal shape for flares you do have something to help with flame retention so you can operate them outside the forge and observe how they react to pressure changes.

It's best to do this in shaded or low light areas since sunlight can wash out the colors and make it harder to see what's happening at the ends of your burners. 

T burners are fairly easy to construct, but do try to make sure you follow the instructions exactly.  Substituting parts or sizes tends to produce less than optimal results.

[Frosty]

Where you  have the holes drilled in the bell reducer intake, mig tips have to be WAY down the mixing tubes. The last time I looked at Ron's burners the gas tube was at the top of the bell reducers. That was when he was still drilling his jets. I understand he started mounting them in the reducers with through holes rather than notches and clamps on top but I can't imagine he put them nearly that deep. 

Forget about gauges, your burners aren't close enough to right for knowing the psi to matter. Once you're within tuning range you can do it all by ear and gauges will just confuse you. You have to work with yours, compare notes when you have one functioning. Toll then the PSI someone else's burner runs under is meaningless to YOU.

A 0.030 in a linear burner will burn from lean to rich depending on the choke setting. Your's is burning WAY too rich with the chokes wide open. If the jet were blocked it would burn rich but NOT with that much flame.

The first thing I'd do is move the jets WAY back. Even duct taping the supply pipe across the top of the bell reducer would show me all I needed to know about positioning in a couple seconds. 

I have to agree with Thomas, you should be asking the guy making that version of Ron's burners rather than us.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[North State]

Hazendart, what of you isolate one burner and use just the other one? I wonder if that would make it better, worse or same? I can't imagine the flame laying over any more.

[Mikey98118]

After looking at the video, your problem looks like internal obstructions, rather then the wrong tip.

[Blacksmiter]

Hello all. I am new to this forum, and came across this thread while searching for the answer to a question about forge welding temperature. I’m posting it here however as I have this same forge built from the same video. I’ve learned a lot reading the site so far and fiddling with the forge I’ve built to try to get things running properly and here’s my question. Is flux required to forge weld, does it actually lower the required welding temp (or have I read that wrong) and is mild steel harder to forge weld because of its lower carbon content? I believe I have the answers from reading other posts on this site but I have nobody to confer with in my area on the subject so I’m looking to confirm. (Not required to weld but highly recommended, it does lower the required temp, and mild steel harder to weld than higher carbon steels.)

As for this forge build here is what I’ve learned so far with my version. The entire assembled burner I have is approximately 9 inches tall. The chokes are currently set at half open, with the pressure regulator on my propane tank set to 17-18 psi. Using the same parts list in the video posted above. I have found that a small 20lb propane tank is insufficient in being able to supply fuel fast enough. I experienced constant freeze up and a 40lb tank immersed in a small container of water performs much better even in cold temperatures. The lining is 2 inches of ceramic refractory fiber blanket that has been rigidized and coated in ITC-100. The floor is refractory cement (2300 degree rated if I recall). The top welds around the collar were a little sloppy so I have some of the ceramic blanket around them to seal any gaps. Where the burners are mounted with set screws, I found I MUST have that gap closed or the fuel/air mix would not stabilize. Once sealed it was a noticeable difference. 

Currently running, the jets are approx the same size, stable with no sputtering and a consistent light-med blue (according to my eyes anyway). The DB starts out more blue with a hint of orange at the tip upon first start up but after approx 20 mins or so it is more orange throughout. I try to keep the front and back openings sealed as good as possible with firebrick while heating pieces.

I purchased a high temp thermometer that reads 2350 degrees F after 20-30 mins operating. I believe this is hot enough to achieve forge welding. I have flux ordered and will try again once it arrives, but having read several articles describing it being possible without flux I tried and failed. I believe I am making some sort of mistake at this point since the thermometer reads an adequate temp for welding (I think).  Also, the pieces don’t appear to have excessive scale while in the forge but they do scale considerably upon removal which is why I believe I’ve failed at welding thus far. I have posted some pictures of the forge while building and will also post some video of the forge running and temp readings. I’m hoping they all work for everyone. Thanks for your time and I’m looking forward to hearing some feedback etc. I hope it may have helped with your questions HazenDart.

[Mikey98118]

Your burner's pipe reducers are at least not as undersized as the first guy's were, but you need to look up the Ron Riel burner pages on the Net, and find out how to build his burners correctly.