Another FrankenBurner

3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

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I'd sure like to buy one once you get one you like.

Frosty The Lucky.

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V40 is a success.  It is happy to run on the peg up through 15 psi without a nozzle adjustment.  At higher pressures, the flame enters purple territory with the 030 jet. 

The rib length was increased to 5/8" which happens to be 0.625", which I find interesting as the throat diameter is 0.622".  Several of the measurements which I found best, happened to land very near multiples of the throat diameter.  

Below 1 psi with the 030 jet, 6 inch mix tube and the 1.25 nozzle:

IMG-0422.JPG.9ceb321e6694e8906f6494205cca6ca1.JPG

 

 

1 hour ago, louspinuso said:

I'm sure people would pay to get some based on the results I'm reading here.

I had played with that idea.  It would be nice to make back some of the money I have invested in my play to fund even more experiments.  I worry about the liabilities of selling high output burners.

43 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

But, someone is going to build these parts in aluminum too; it's just a given.

That is my intention and the next stage in my experiments.  My original intention was always to cast these in aluminum.  Until then, they are just my toys.  We have built a heat treat kiln for burnout and are in the process of building the vacuum table for investment casting.

48 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

These air chambers would make the ultimate kit part; I would buy one myself!

I had wondered if I were to offer just the inducer head in aluminum, if I would still have to worry about liability.  

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There ain't no such thing as not worrying about liability. You don't have to do a darn thing wrong to have lawyer trouble. On the other hand, liability problems from a kit part, WHICH SOMEONE ELSE HAS TO FINISH, and put in a burner that this someone else built, is about as likely as a lightening strike on a clear day.

I bid fifty bucks; what you say sport?

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5 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

I had wondered if I were to offer just the inducer head in aluminum, if I would still have to worry about liability.  

I completely understand what you mean.  I'd be willing to sign a liability waiver, knowing what dangers are involved with this sort of work anyway.

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14 hours ago, Frosty said:

I'd sure like to buy one once you get one you like.

I would aswell

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I am glad everyone likes the burner.  I am excited at the idea of offering a product.  I will work hard to make that happen.  There is still a bit to do.  

Next steps in my mind:

  • Finish vacuum table
  • Test different investment recipes
  • Modify model to fit commonly available pipe/tube for the choke
  • Modify model to add set screw flats for the mix tube and accelerator (they are friction fit currently)
  • Modify model to deal with aluminum shrinkage
  • Cast this guy in aluminum
  • True mix tube and accelerator ports in the lathe if needed
  • Drill/tap for set screws
  • Test him in several forges (top and bottom mounted)

After all that is accomplished, I will have a realistic idea on whether or not I can provide them.  After I have made a handful, I will have a better idea of what my cost and labor will be to make these things.  After all that, it will be time to play with NARBs.

I will have to research the patent stuff.  I know nothing on the subject.

I printed version 41 today to strengthen the ribs.  It's performance is the same as v40.  I am very happy with these versions.  The next version will be a 3/8 mix tube version with the same design and ratios to see if it can support the 023 jet.

Mostly unrelated, researching for these burners had me studying vortices a while back.  This led me to building a tornado tube out of coke bottles for my daughter.  That wasn't good enough.  I searched for the right shaped bottles.  I ended up with Perrier water bottles.  I designed and printed a connecter which also has the right throat size to produce a powerful vortex in the bottle.  Version 4 was successful.  I can't stop playing with it.

1458221154_vortextube.jpg.61b4ddb81fba42e9d1986e40d504ca38.jpg

It forms 2 sets of helical lines:

vortex1.thumb.JPG.4ea1f807707514804d61533faac7bcc2.JPG

It takes a long time to run all the water out:

vortex2.thumb.JPG.108cab17a390152315c176833fcd2315.JPG

 

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I think a kit would be a good product. Female pipe thread to connect to an appropriate length of black iron pipe. That way you can cast the head so it bottoms against the DEBURRED  pipe nipple. This lets you make the throat a properly aerodynamic shape. It minimizes lathe and finish time if you're not making mixing tubes. It also really reduces the chance someone will mount it incorrectly and gripe publicly. 

Outlet flares and such can be made by the end user. I'll probably not use it as a single outlet anyway, I'm planning on screwing it straight into a NARB. Well. . . . Maybe more than one, my next forge wants 2 NARBs.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Nice project. I see that you have placed alot of time and effort into this. 

Just something to think about. Have you thought about sleeving over the vanes, making the sleeve adjustable to control air intake? Maybe thread the exterior of the mixing chamber to accommodate this. This may or may not help, just came to mind. 

Oh, I have used a program ANSYS. If you found someone that has it, a cheaper version, or a cheaper platform, it could save you some money in the long run by simulating your CAD model. Of course the program takes the fun out of making and testing. 

All in all, nice work. 

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9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Female pipe thread to connect to an appropriate length of black iron pipe.

I avoided this in the experiments as I have seen some fairly eccentric pipe nipples.  I did not want it to effect performance.  I will work on this.

9 hours ago, Bowen said:

Have you thought about sleeving over the vanes, making the sleeve adjustable to control air intake?

I have a sliding sleeve on the experiments.  The new versions maintain a good flame through their entire pressure range with the choke wide open, the induction curve is balanced well.  I still have it to shutoff air in emergencies, go to a reducing flame when desired, and to prevent chimney at shutoff for top mounters.  I had once thought of threading the outside of the inducer and the inside of the choke but I didn't want the turbulence that the choke threads might introduce.  It could still be a good idea if that kind of positioning resolution was required but the choke setting isn't critical.

9 hours ago, Bowen said:

I have used a program ANSYS. If you found someone that has it, a cheaper version, or a cheaper platform

The program looks very awesome.  I assume it is expensive.  I would have to purchase it, become fluent, and hope the simulation is accurate.  For me, trial and error has worked, didn't take too much effort, and I know it is accurate(enough for garage science).  Plus, like you said, it would have taken away my fun.

Are you an engineer of some sort?  If so, what sort?

The idea of people using those simulators and understanding fluid dynamics in that detail makes me hope someone from NASA likes to come to this little thread for a good laugh.  

Thank you for the information and the kind words.  

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

At what point does this become a permanent thread?

When it's content becomes worthy, I suppose.  Maybe the mark of a true home brew burner guru is when their burner has improperly built import knockoffs being sold on ebay and amazon.  Search for "forge burner" in either one and you will find Mikey's, Frosty T's, Reil's, Dave Hammer's, and sidearms.  Almost exclusively built incorrectly, some in ways the original creator explicitly states not to.  Good for a laugh.

 

I have now gone through a full roll of filament and a full fuel tank for these experiments. 

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It's a permanent thread now, Glenn doesn't throw anything out that isn't a rule violation and I bet he has those stashed somewhere.

2 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

avoided this in the experiments as I have seen some fairly eccentric pipe nipples.  I did not want it to effect performance.  I will work on this.

I'm not talking about experimentals, the less machining the better. I'm talking about production units. As you've said water pipe is rather inconsistent, tapered pipe threads takes care of that. Sleaving the connection requires a higher degree of precision from a product known for rather sloppy specs. While you can center and align the coupling with set screws you can't stop fuel air mix from leaking past a gap. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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When you say permanent thread, are you talking about the pinned threads or is there something else?  Glenn doesn't throw anything out that isn't a rule violation?  I did not follow.

I did not think about the pipe threads being standard sized.  Save labor, prevent leaks, fit proper, diy friendly.  It's a good idea which I will follow.  Thanks Frosty.

People will have to pay attention to the nipple they purchase, I have seen nipples which the bore, the pipe, and the threads all have their own axis.  It will be interesting to see how much of a change that might make in the flame.

I'm all done talking about nipples, for now.  

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I think Mike meant sub topic rather than thread, this has been a thread since the second post. ;)

Yes, Glenn keeps everything posted, some is just invisible to the general membership. Even Admin moderated posts have copies saved unedited, as posted, just not visible. If you want details PM Glenn.

When you write the instructions I recommend you suggest the same trick I use for finding brass fittings I can tap for mig tips. Take the burner . . . uhhhh . . . What are you calling these things? to the REAL plumbing supply and try for fit and finish before you buy. 

The easy way to tell if pipe or anything round is true is lay it flat on a desk, counter or floor and roll it under your palm, you'll feel any irregularity instantly. Works better for early screening than instrumentation.

Remember boys and girls always roll nipples under your palm before you buy!  :ph34r:

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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I think threaded  pipe nipples could be a plus. It seems to me that it is the fittings, rather than the pipe itself, that are getting problematic. Plus. people can always take the air chamber to the hardware store and check the pipe with it before choosing one. Having to constantly remind lazy bones to clean up the inside edge of the threaded end of the pipe will be irritating, but that's just part of dealing with the public.

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4 hours ago, Frosty said:

What are you calling these things?

If you are talking about a name, I've never thought about it.  I figured a name would come about on it's own.  If you are talking nomenclature, for a while I called them burner heads and I have also called them inducers.  Mikey refers to them as air chambers. 

I am up for any suggestions.  Preferably facetious.  

I got threads and pinned threads... now sub topics.  Being ignorant always makes simple things seem complicated.  :P

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

I think threaded  pipe nipples could be a plus.

That is what I will shoot for.  I will make a fancy fitting.  It seems more DIY appropriate.  

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Yeah I'm talking about a name, at least for purposes of discussion, it gets confusing for the brain damaged participants. 

As for a brand name I'll order whatever you call them. I like Dr. Frankenburner's "Twisted Flaming Gizmo." 

Frosty The Lucky.

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But the gizmo doesn't flame.  Twisted sucking gizmo?  We probably should not go down that line.  When the diameter was smaller and the ribs longer, someone in my family called it a twirly burner.  It's not so twirly anymore.  

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Oh, I wasn't going for fancy, I just figured that pretty much describes what it does.

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