Another FrankenBurner

3D printed plastic burner experiments (photo heavy)

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I like the can forge idea.  I will have to try it.  

As to figuring out the cubic inch capabilities, I will have to build a handful of forges in varying sizes to test that.  I have never pushed any burner to it's limits as I would rather plan some head room and know a forge can get hot enough.  We have the monster 450 in³ forge with the two 1/2 inch burners which runs very hot but we have not tested it's forge welding capabilities.  We run the burners at 5 psi for higher orange forging temperature so I suspect it will forge weld without problems.  

I tend to like "small" forges so the 1/2 inch burners are my go to but I have functioning 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch, 1/2 inch, and 3/4 inch burners.  I guess 1 inch is the next step.  Maybe work my way up to 2 inch for all the new guys with the 55 gallon drum forges.  

Lately it has been mostly nozzle design and learning about investment burnout for the casting.

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There is nothing I like more than testing a burner's limits; nor anything I'm quicker to do than sand bag my figures heavily when writing up instructions afterward. If other idiots need to jump off the proverbial cliff, this idiot ain't a gonna help them none!!! :D

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18 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

What is your procedure for testing the limits?

First buy a box of K 26 IFB so you can change chamber volume and shape precisely without a lot of hassle. Why K 26? So they don't crumble every second test. Yes?

Document everything of course.

Frosty The Lucky.

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20 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

Would a K26 forge be comparable to a blanket, refractory, wash forge of similar volume, in terms of burner capacity?  

Yes; that is almost exactly what it would be; the difference is that the ceramic fiber has better insulation numbers at lower temperatures. At forge temperatures the numbers are neck and neck :)

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We are seeing the same issue with the K26 bricks that we had with the K23's.  We have now had several of them fracture apart.  They are Morgan Thermal Ceramic K26's.  The latest one was handled nicely and used as a rear baffle wall for a short time.  We don't like it as they are convenient but we are now looking to cast baffle walls with kast o lite and blanket.  

There is another forge in the shop.  This one is another oval forge with a bottom mounted burner.  It is 185 in³.  The oval is a 4 inch circle split by 2 inches and the forge is 9 inches in length.  It is a monolithic cast which looks like an oval spool which is then wrapped with 1 inch of blanket.  It has a single 1/2 inch burner and a cast nozzle.  It forges at 2-4 psi and welds at 6-7 psi and it doesn't have the matrikote yet.  So far, it is the favorite.  Small enough to be nice with fuel, big enough to do most things we will do.  

Here it is after shut down:

185 Forge

 

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14 minutes ago, Another FrankenBurner said:

We are seeing the same issue with the K26 bricks that we had with the K23's. 

The temps must be exceeding the 2,600 F + the safety margin. I choked when I saw the price of K 29s, way beyond my allowance. 

Guess I'll stop drawing cut patterns to make my next forge from K 16, flame face and kiln wash or not. DRATS.

Frosty The Lucky.

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You have to remember that his burners are running way hot. He will have to consider 2600 F as secondary insulation. Ditto for using Matrikote. He will need Plistex over Kast-O-lite at a minimum.

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Oh yeah, I figure he's hitting close to air prop flame max, 3,200+ f. flame face refractory time.  Morgan Ceramics is going to Love the new Dr. Fankenburner when his burners hit the market. ;)

Frosty The Lucky.

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I was wondering what I was doing wrong over here.  I had not thought about the burners possibly being hot enough to be too much for the bricks.  If that is the case, having to work with that problem is good stuff.  

As to the flame face, I am looking to experiment with the zircopax/bentonite.   The last I thought I had read, people were having troubles with cracking.  I am looking for best recommendations for a starting point.  Is 97:3 or 95:5 the current recommended ratio?  Is that by volume or weight?  Bentonite, veegum, or bentone?  I seem to recall the veegum did not work out.  How should they be mixed?  How much water?  How should it be applied?  What should the dry, cure, fire cycle be?

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Our friend in the Netherlands was using Bentone. The problem with veegum is how long it takes to dry and that's with under 0.25%, it's also a real bear to mix, usually takes days or longer of just sitting. I've messed with bentonite but 3pts. zircopax to 1pt bentonite and tossed a tbsp size tooth paste consistency gob in the mid yellow forge and it fired hard as a rock. Coolness was it foamed as it fired. 

I haven't messed with a proper ratio of zircopax and bentonite yet but it's warming up, another couple weeks and it shouldn't drop below freezing at night and I can go play in the mud. We don't need plastic mud zircopax particles just need to be well coated, bentonite will stick and fire to itself no problem. I'm going to start at 97% zircopax to 3% bentonite and see how it works.

A yard sale blender mixes bentonite and water in seconds. It's called a vane sheer effect, the cavitation behind the blades breaks it right up.

About dry times, cure rates, etc. Keep us in the loop please, I will. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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 I also think your best burners are reaching 3200 F flames; that is even too hot for Kast-O-lite 30. And this is with propane only. You have already come into zirconium ceramics country :)

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9 hours ago, Frosty said:

Our friend in the Netherlands was using Bentone. 

This is Correct, it does have similar properties as Veegum in that it can take forever to dry. Using as little water as possible helps. I can confirm I had issues with cracking but this was when using only bentone and zirconium silicate directly applied on ceramic wool.  I had better success adding a small percentage of calcined kaolin clay to the mix. This inhibits shrinking and decreases the drying time somewhat. Adding paper fiber increases the dry (green) strength and eases molding somewhat.  I should have the exact numbers for the above mixture somewhere. I'll post them here when I find them.

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I found my old post. I found it best to my the components dry, I used a tumbler mad from a piece of pipe. 

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1 hour ago, MonkeyForge said:

I found my old post. I found it best to my the components dry, I used a tumbler mad from a piece of pipe. 

I found it best to mix the components dry, I used a tumbler made from a piece of pipe. 

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Good to see you posting again, I've missed hearing about your experiments. :) 

I've been thinking more on the lines of high temp kiln washes than the hard liner. Getting clay in the bentonite family that thick to dry without shrink checking is a trick. I'd be applying it in really thin coats like paint if I were to try. Talk about a pain though, it might take weeks per coat and no guarantees.  

I couldn't find performance or use info and I don't wish to bother them at this point but HWI sells a castable, "TZ 452", which is 80%-90% zirconia and cements and binders. 

Anybody out there know about this stuff? Dr. Frankenburner looks to have developed a burner that mere 3,000f refractory can't handle long.

Frosty The Lucky.

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I don't know about flame temperatures.  The exotic extreme heat thermocouples are a bit pricey.  I originally based everything on reading the flame.  Now we have tested the 1/2 inch version in a few forges and a furnace.  We are happy with their functionality and performance.  I have continued my experiments to understand the dynamics of each portion of the inducer and nozzle better.  I continue to push for improvements in induction volume, mixing, and balanced induction curve.  Melted nozzles, cracked kast o lite and broken firebricks are hopefully evidence that I am getting somewhere in terms of temperatures.  

Thank you for the information Mike and Jerry.  When I started playing around with printed burners, I had no idea I would eventually have to start looking to upgrade refractories.  

Thank you for information and the link MonkeyForge.  I read it all, along with all links along the way and all of your other posts.  Did you ever finish up the forge from that post?  Like Jerry, I was thinking more of a kiln wash.  What you have done looks great.  

I had been looking into high alumina ceramics for nozzle experiments.  Now I will play with the zircopax for that as well.  

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I agree, because the temperatures your forges can reach now are beyond thermocouple  ranges.

Air burners experience a spike of nitrates in the exhaust between 2800 F and 3200 F. The first time I smelled ozone in a forge exhaust I knew my burners were "officially" running several hundred degrees hotter than air/propane burners were supposed to be able to reach.

Than I tried running them out in the open air on propylene, a hotter burning fuel, and the ozone smell ended; which meant the burners were then running above 3200 F; to my way of thinking. Those same burners had made orange incandescence on their flame retention nozzles burning propane; on propylene, the nozzles were yellow.

This is why I said your burners were reaching 3200 F when I saw them in photos.

Two different guys on this forum reached temperatures of 2750 F, using my burners (and a assume all the other advice on forge building available here), before their sensing equipment started melting. As near as I can tell, your burners are putting out one-third more heat. You can tell people to keep them idling all you want, and then listen to fantastic stories about how they "did everything you said" and still burned up their forges!!! Ya, sure they did...

Or, you can bow to the inevitable know, and start building tomorrow's forges for tomorrow's burners :)

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  Like propylene fuel, your burners get about one-third hotter, which means that the burners can be cut back a lot, for the same heat level in your forge, or a smaller burner can be used. Either way, the rate of internal atmosphere exchange within the forge interior can thus be slowed; this reduces fuel consumption per work heated drastically. Employing your burners calls for more expensive materials in the forge and in any flame retention nozzle, to withstand increased flame temperatures,; unlike propylene fuel, your burners plus propane, will probably end up with a 50% fuel cost savings :).

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I sure hope you are exactly correct.  The initial goal in all of this was to make a burner which would reduce my fuel usage.  I know I have accomplished that.

I recently replaced a 3/4 inch modified side arm burner, in my main forge, with one of my 1/2 inch burners.  It is running a smaller mig tip at a lower pressure to get to the same forging temperature in the forge.  This is with the burner running near it's low end.  Also, there is no more dragon's breath to heat up the shop.  I have not managed to run a full bottle out since the burner change.  We are very happy with their performance in each forge and furnace we have tried them in.  

We are keeping a close eye on the refractory in each piece of equipment.  Now we have to play in the mud to hopefully find a refractory solution using the zirconium silicate.

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Check out HWI, TZ 452 castable refractory, it's IIRC 80%+ Zirconia. I didn't see a working max temp and I didn't contact HWI and ask. 

I don't know how good it is but I believe it's the next step up from Kastolite 30. Gonna need something better to withstand Dr. Frankenburner's creations. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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The 452 site lists the refractory contents, which I would be willing to by and mix up, BUT in their SDS sheet it gives warning about radiation hazards that are definitely not acceptable; not when the same ingredients can be purchased from a different source, without radiation hazards!

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Zirconia is a byproduct of refining uranium. ALL of it contains some residual uranium traces. It's radioactivity is comparable to normal background levels. HWI lists the warning for legal reasons unlike other suppliers say Zircopax etc. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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That's good enough for me.

I notice that the cone section beyond your burner's air intake section has heavy folds; care to go into that with the Peanut Gallery, Dr. F?

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