Tongs versus vice grips

[George N. M.]

As background to my question let me say that I am a self taught smith and never had a master or even another smith to guide me until I had been forging for a dozen or more years.  When I started I realized that I needed something to hold metal to keep from burning my hand with transferred heat.  So, I went to my tool box and got out a pair of vicegrip pliers.  They worked fine and in different sizes were my standard hot metal grabbing tool.  It wasn't until I had been blacksmithing for some years that I acquired a pair of tongs.  They struck me as working OK but I had to keep pressure on the reins to keep from dropping stuff.  Now, I use both depending on the project but I still tend toward locking pliers (vicegrips), particularly for small size pieces of metal.

I have been told that locking pliers were invented by a Nebraska smith in the early years of the 20th century who was tired of dropping hot metal.

So, what does anyone think about the advantages of using either locking pliers or tongs.  It strikes me that tongs with specialized jaws work better for a special shape, e.g. holding the head end of a railroad spike, while locking pliers are better than simple flat jawed tongs for general work.  I will give you that tongs allow quicker adjustment of the geometry of holding device and work piece while a locking pliers gives a more positive pressure and less tendency to drop the work piece either by relaxing your grip or knocking it out of the jaws while striking.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

Yeah, Visegrips were invented by a blacksmith so he wouldn't drop as much stuff. 

Make a keeper for your tongs so you don't have to keep squeezing them. A flattened ring or C shape are most common but some have flip up hooks, rings, etc. 

Both have their place at the anvil, I have a number of tongs and visegrips and use them all.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Glenn]

Look into tong clips or tong rings.

[ThomasPowers]

There is a tendency to detemper the springs in vise grips when used at the forge for long periods...

Tong rings or clips have been in use for centuries.

[George N. M.]

Thomas:

True enough but I can get new springs at the hardware store for less than a dollar.

Maybe I am just not used to them but tong clips or rings have, on the few times I have tried them, seemed more awkward to use than a vicegrip.  It may just be how we learned and what we are used to.  I will say that an advantage to tongs is that they never get too hot to the touch.  Vicegrips, if they are too close to the fire, need an occasional cooling off in the slack tub.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Tongs also need cooling in the slack tub. I like the extra length of tongs, with vise grips I usually wind up singeing hair on my arm especially when using the propane forge.

[rockstar.esq]

George, I've never had much luck using vice grips for forging.  Pliers in general tend to do better when they're perpendicular to the long axis of stock.  Drawing stock out square is easier holding the stock in line with the long axis because I can rotate my wrist 90 degrees every other blow.  It's a lot harder to control everything with the "handle" mounted perpendicular.  Whenever I've tried grabbing stock endwise with pliers, the stock wants to pivot whenever the jaws are horizontal.

 Any sort of taper to the gripped area tends to work vice grips loose.  Everything is fine until it's suddenly not.  I've had limited success holding drifts and punches with them.  They seem to work better with tools that have no tapers.

Of course, all of that assumes that we're strictly talking about stock vice grips.  There's no reason a person couldn't weld "bits" to the jaws to overcome these setbacks.

[George N. M.]

I recently came across a variation which may have some of the best of both worlds.  They were on the clearance rack at the True Value hardware store for $4.99 each.  They are True Value house brand, made in China.  Thomas, these would eliminate the problem of having the spring too close to the heat and risking drawing the temper.

[Daswulf]

I bought a pair like the one on the right early off too. They don't like heat and they don't like impact. They did not last long for me. 

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning, George

Vise-grips are the only brand worth buying. Everything else is a copy and a very POOR copy at that. I tried many pairs of un-Vise-Grips and the junk fills a large bucket. Forget the Vice-grips for Forging, Make or purchase good Tongs. Buy once, good forever. Cheaper to pay a little more at the start!!

Neil

[LORD_BLACK]

I bought some like the ones on the right. Then I realized they are zinc coated and have not used them. 

[JHCC]

Welcome to IFI! If you haven't yet, please READ THIS FIRST!!!

7 minutes ago, LORD_BLACK said:

Then I realized they are zinc coated and have not used them. 

Unless you're leaving them in the fire, galvanizing isn't going to be a problem. If you really want some peace of mind, just give them a vinegar soak overnight to take the zinc off.

[ThomasPowers]

Are they zinc coated and not plated with something else?

[LORD_BLACK]

 

Link to Harbor Freight removed, commercial links are not allowed per TOS

Edited May 13, 2020 by Mod30
Remove commercial link

[ThomasPowers]

"zinc plated" all right.  They are the cheapie version!

[LORD_BLACK]

Yeah, they are not great but i thought they could help with forging. I might vinegar soak them like the site pinned post said. 

[rockstar.esq]

Some tools are so cheaply made that one could almost argue that the Zinc coating is structural.

[Frosty]

I still use visegrips or knockoffs and frequently. Some thing need a locked pinch you can let go of and a light enough pincher it doesn't over balance the work. I use them often to hold the parts while I set rivets. 

On the other hand if I were anywhere near as good as Metalmangler is at making tongs I'd probably make specialty tongs. Still there's a point of diminishing returns where visegrips becomes viable.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

And tongs with tong rings fits in their somewhere.  I've had students with tong issues that were helped by sticking a ring on them to hold them closed.

[LORD_BLACK]

I forged these on my second day. I will have to make some better ones but these work for now.  

[anvil]

I have two dozen vice grips in my shop. They are all the "c" shaped tongs. I couldn't be without them. 

But I've never used any as tongs.

I think doing a drop the tongs weld would be no fun. 

Also locking them and unlocking them on my work would be a killer for time. 

I can think of many situations where they just wouldn't be practable, and only a few where they would be doable. 

[pnut]

You can make vice grips much more useful by welding bits to the jaws of the vice grips. When I get access to a welder I'm going to weld bits on a few more pairs.  I was having problems with the vise grips not making contact with the stock and creating a swivel point. The bits welded to the jaws stopped it from happening. Even with the bits welded to the jaws a pair of fitted tongs and tong ring is still preferable for me. 

Pnut

 

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I’m kinda like George, I don’t have his years of experience

   But I’ve been mostly using vise grips, ive got a couple sets of long handled old farm tongs that are flat jawed I don’t care for and I’ve also made a few pairs of short tongs out of old nippers I pick up at yard sales that work okay,  

So far I just kinda favor the vise grips overall, ive been using the name brand ones and so far haven’t had any issues with them 

Ive seen people here talk about kens tongs so looked them up the other day and I thought about ordering some of those since there’s different styles to choose from and trying out different ones to see if I can find some types of tongs Id like better then the vise grips, 

 

[JHCC]

The thing about vise grips, pliers, and pincer-type or flat-jaw tongs is that they depend entirely on friction between the jaws and the workpiece to hold the latter in place. The smaller the area of contact, the greater the pressure needed to hold the workpiece securely. Vise-grips have the advantage here, as the levering mechanism increases the jaw pressure and then locks it in place, but you're still dependent on that small area of contact, and the locking handles mean that you can't adjust your grip mid-heat. As rockstar.esq notes above, "Everything is fine until it's suddenly not."

Any tongs with bits shaped to match the workpiece (V-bit, round, hoop, etc) have the advantage of not relying exclusively on friction, as the shaped bits keep the piece from twisting or sliding with comparatively little pressure. As pnut notes above, welding bits onto vise grips is kind of the best of both worlds. However, that still doesn't address the problem rockstar.esq mentions of having the handles out of line with the workpiece.

[ThomasPowers]

I pick up "farmer tongs" when they are cheap, (US$5 or below); just for modifying into ones I can use for a project.