Anvil prices?

[Dave M]

Do anvil prices make any 1 else scratch thier heads? I mean lets face it, they are big gobs of steel. I know it is a process to make them but there is zero new technology in them it has all been pretty much done before. I have purchased mig welders, tig & stick welders and a plasma cutter for less or the same as a new 400 lb. anvil. Heck I bought a diesel 4x4 farm tractor for less and I am not sure but I think the tractor might weigh more:rolleyes: so it should have a higher scrap value. I am just venting because when people ask what is my most expensive piece of blacksmithg equipment I have to laugh and tell them pound for pound it is my anvils. I know there are a lot of good scrap and home made anvils, I have a bunch but once you use a real nice heavy shop anvil you then know what you are missing.

[ThomasPowers]

Does the term "Economies of Scale" ring any bells? Anvils are such a low number item that the costs of making and selling them are quite high.

Currently the highest dollar item in the shop is my Propane as I've bought anvils, a triphammer and a screw press for under the cost of getting my tank filled. It's one of the 5' tall tanks....

Of course I have a reputation for stumbling over great deals....save for propane...

[kevan]

Accepting the correctness of what Thomas has to say regarding economies of scale, with the latest round of global steel price increases, prepare to pay more for new anvils and a disproportionate parallel increase for old ones. Just be happy that there is no platinum in anvils.
Kevan

[matt87]

Expanding a little on economies of scale, consider the tooling-up costs. It might cost five times as much to tool-up to make a tractor as an anvil, but if you make 100 times as many tractors as anvils.

Plus don't forget that fewer new anvils are sold than tractors; each anvil needs a higher markup to pay wages.

[Thomas Dean]

Can you explain the ridiculous rise in fuel, wether it be gasoline, propane, or desiel? To me that is more of a head scratcher than the high prices of an anvil! :(

[nonjic]

the anvil will have a higher residual value than all the other items mentioned. If you calculate the cost of the anvil (or any major item) on a cost per day of ownership taking into account its residual / disposal value im sure the cost of a new anvil is next to nothing.

Dont ever do this calculation on your car though, you will be depressed for weeks :)

[ThomasPowers]

Not me my last two pick-up truck purchases have been putting money in the bank for me.

[Frostfly]

Can you explain the ridiculous rise in fuel, wether it be gasoline, propane, or desiel? To me that is more of a head scratcher than the high prices of an anvil!

I can explain this, but it requires a economics lecture and a politics lecture which I'm sure you don't want to hear.

Short. Bad economics policy over the last 8 (or 28 depending on how you look) has produced a situation where the US doller is at a record low level. Because OPEC has decided that the US doller is the basis for the price of oil and we use a LOT of oil prices for oil products in the US have skyrocketted. Oh and invading an unstable region where most oil comes from and making it MORE unstable doesn't help any either.

The American doller is crashing. The next 10-20 years are gonna be very lean times I fear.

[blafen]

hey man at least you dont live in a stat where the cost of shipping an anvil is equal or more than the price of an anvil. i got a 200 pound vulcan for 500 dollars and im not complaining.

[larrynjr]

The way that Nimba Anvils puts it on their site, their 450 lb. gladiator costs $5.05 per lb. not much more than the cost of lobster in Maine.

The Rat Hole 460 lb. anvil comes to $3.94 a lb. not much more than a gallon of gas here in Wa. and cheaper than Diesel fuel!

It's just having to pay for all those pounds of steel at once that makes them expensive.

[patrick]

Here in souther Wisconsin the price of low nickel carbon and alloy steel scrap is at an all time high of $500 per ton. That is $125 just in material cost for a 500 # anvil. Then consider the cost of energy to melt the steel, the overhead in the shop that casts and heat treats the anvil, the economies of scale etc. If you assume a mark up by the produce of 50% over cost of production, you can easily see why new anvils are so (seemingly) expensive.

Patrick

[Glenn]

blafen
Go to the top of the forum page and click on user cp
click on user profile
go to the bottom of the page, enter your location, and save.

We would like to know where in the world you are located.

[Ferrous Beuler]

Dave, in your post you mention your "anvils", as in plural. So you have 'some anvils', as in more than one?
If so- good for you!
Just caught my attention, thought this was about acquiring that first anvil.
LOTS of eyeballs out there looking for advice on getting that "first" anvil.
For those looking, go to your local auctions and keep the faith, you will find one.
For the unscrupulous dealers/antique sharks out there - if you are here just to turn a quick buck, this is not for you.

[imagedude]

When you consider the price of an anvil you must factor in depreciation over your lifetime. If it isn't abused it should last many lifetimes. Given the rising prices of iron and fuel the anvil will probably increase in value!

[Glenn]

It is a shame to meet a someone wanting to get started in blacksmithing, show them an anvil collection, then destroy all their hopes by saying the anvils can not be used. This individual may be the next master if only they were encouraged and provided use of an anvil.

To the individual that sees two or three anvils and feels that the owner should give one to them, anvils are tools, and like any other tool, you may need more than one size anvil for the work you do.

New or used, the cost of an anvil is determined by the buyer and the seller. When they agree, that is the cost of that anvil. The true value of the anvil is when you get it home and use it.

Additional reading
Thomas Powers Applied Anvil Acquisition Technique (TPAAAT)

[evfreek]

Hi. I think that there have been a lot of good points raised. I'll comment on a few of them. Even though Thomas is my hero attempting to get the same steals^H^H^H^H^H^Hgood deals that he does is unrealistic. I once had a boss who liked to say, "I didn't give you that advice so that you could make something out of it. I gave it because I thought you were stupid enough for me to deceive you." All in good fun, though. His biggest scam was to get all the single guys to start wearing ties to work so they would look good at the grocery store on the way home.

As for steel prices, $500 per ton is really low. It is more of a scrappers buying price. We have mystery, mostly mild structural steel with lots of rust and paint selling for 50 cents per pound. I would not want an anvil made out of this stuff. It would be better to have a railroad track. Unfortunately, track cutoffs are $1.00 per pound at the scrap dealer, since they are good steel and the dealer thinks that they are in huge demand for anvils. Good custom induction remelts are going to be in the few dollar per pound range unless you can source the scrap yourself at a deal. Patternmaking is tough and is an art for an anvil, especially if you want to core the holes. Then, you have the heat treating and the finishing. Unless you do the heat treating yourself as part of the process, expect to farm it out for $3 plus per pound. I don't know anyone around here who will flame harden the anvil top only. The finishing is going to involve a lot of painstaking and mistake prone grinding, else your anvil will look like an ugly Russian submarine.

The grade of steel is pretty important if you want to make a good anvil. I tried talking to an agent in China about casting some anvils. I was eventually told that I talked too much when I insisted on a deep hardening medium alloy steel. They wanted to make it out of mild, or even worse, cast iron. No difference, but a lot cheaper. It is very hard to communicate with those who are very sure of themselves. This adds to the cost of any endeavor. One of my colleagues told me that spec'ing a Chinese product takes 4X as long, because of all the repeated instruction.

If you look at the price of good air hardening steel, it is in the few to several dollar a pound range. It is possible to get drops for less, but this does not constitute a production ready source. I have wondered about welding drops onto mild steel. The price for drops on Ebay can be as low as $1 per pound (no choice). Then, there is that nasty full pen face weld. These will take a lot of grinding and chipping. I was there. The surprising thing is that it doesn't take much electricity. It does take a lot of rod, and even worse, a lot of time.

Anyway, I think that the prices are reasonable, and these folks are not making a killing considering all the costs. But the complaint is valid. Coming up with $1000 right at the very beginning of a hobby that may not last forever is kind of intimidating, especially before the first poker or spork is made. And, anvils are not liquid assets. It is very easy to see a spread of 50% between bid and ask, especially with shipping involved. In other words, if you are in a hurry, it is conceivable that you can end up selling that $300 anvil that you bought on craigslist for only $150. If you only spend a few hours at it, the price could be quite steep.

[Johannes]

Can you explain the ridiculous rise in fuel, wether it be gasoline, propane, or desiel? To me that is more of a head scratcher than the high prices of an anvil!

at the risk of sounding like a nag....
you yanks shouldn't complain, your gass prices are still ridiculous in comparence to ours, but than again y'al drive gasoline swalowing trucks and stuff..


ok sorry for the clich

[duct tape]

I haul heavy stuff in my truck, up and down Colorado mtns, sometimes pulling a trailer. Out here in the Rocky Mountain west, the next nearest town may be farther than from Brussels to Paris. A Citroen or Peugot won't cut it.

Steel prices may be high, but it's diesel prices that are killing me. From what I hear it's not a crude supply issue but a lack of refineries.

[ThomasPowers]

Patrick works for a *large* Forge company, the 1 foot dia stuff is their "small" stock so his prices probably reflect that.

I have a number of anvils and *all* of them get used; many of them may be used on the same project! However I also have a "loaner anvil" that I will loan to students to use while they search out one of their own.

I do not suggest that a beginner pay $1000 at the start. I suggest they use a non-traditional anvil until the right deal comes along. Having once built a complete beginner's kit: Forge, Blower, Anvil, basic tools for under US$20; I am astounded at some of the suggested costs to get into this hobby!

As for trucks, yes I do own a truck it is a 18 year old, fuel injected, 4 cylinder Isuzu and gets decent milage. The problem being that it's an 80 mile drive, each way, to get to my Dr and more like 100 miles as we stack trips so we make them as seldomly as possible. it's only 50 miles to the nearesat public transportation though it lets out about 15 miles from where the Dr's office is---and Dr visits come out of my work hours!

[jayco]

Anvils? I wish there were more of them around. I have a well worn 109 lb. PW. My other anvils are RR track, chunks of iron, etc.
But I have enough 'anvils' to do what I want, so I'm not complaining.

Some folks around here have an old anvil on the porch or in the yard next to some iron wheels or an ox yolk....You know.....the rustic look.
And no, most wouldn't sell them (unless you started counting out $100 bills.)

Often, a guy has one in the back of his garage or barn and won't sell it because he "might want to make something sometime", or the ever popular..."It was grandpa's".

Actually I'm encouraged by a couple things I see in the anvil/ old tool market.
Over time, decorating styles change. Properties change hands.
Who knows.......'the rustic look', may go the way of Beanie Babies and 8-track tapes.

By the way, my cousin bought a home near where I live about a year ago.
I was helping him move in....the seller was gathering the last of his belongings also.I had noticed a little farriers' anvil behind the utility shed.
I planned to ask the seller about the little anvil, of course.

I guess we were both shuttleing loads of furniture and I never got to ask him about the anvil. I just figured I'd missed out on my chance . I never saw him again.

A couple weeks later I was back at my cousin's new house, and noticed that the anvil WAS STILL THERE! The guy just left it!

So, now, my cousin has a free farrier's anvil (that I could borrow if I needed to)
Sometimes strange things happen.That one caught me by surprise!

If you're looking for an anvil; Keep looking and keep asking.........
You never know...........

James Flannery

[rfb343]

I haul heavy stuff in my truck, up and down Colorado mtns, sometimes pulling a trailer. Out here in the Rocky Mountain west, the next nearest town may be farther than from Brussels to Paris. A Citroen or Peugot won't cut it.

LOL no doubt, fortunately I dont have to cram a cord of green oak or a ton of coal into a Citroen but it hauls nice in my 7.3L f250, although I would mind having a 50 plus mpg biodiesel burning car to haul the family around in.

Steel prices may be high, but it's diesel prices that are killing me. From what I hear it's not a crude supply issue but a lack of refineries.

I'd be willing to bet that the change to the ultra low sulfur diesel has something to do with the jump in petrol

[philip in china]

Anvil schmanvil. None of you pay what I had to pay to get a decent anvil out here. Let me tell you boys it was worth every penny and all my gratitude goes to garry at anvils.co.uk for all his efforts. If you buy a decent anvil when you are 20 you should get 50 years of pleasure out of it. That is comparable with only 1 thing I can think of but this is a family site so don't ban me Glenn, you don't know what I meant!

[jayco]

In my earlier post in this thread I said something that got me thinking.....after I'd already posted it , of course.

The part about the 'rustic look' going out of style........

If the 'rustic look' were to go out of style, I know of one smith (Jayco) who would be in trouble!

The same folks who like ox yolks, wagon wheels, and anvils,.......also like nice hand forged things.......In a way, they're our customers!

Also, the more popular blacksmithing becomes, the more demand there is for anvils. We are playing a part in the so-called 'supply and demand' of anvils!

This is more complicated than I first thought!

James Flannery

[Daryl]

Here is a thought: The majority of us are using old anvils. Very few of us have aquired new or recently new anvils. New and recently new (when made) anvils would be considered anything ten years or newer; old anvils are usually anything fifty or more years old, some are over one hundred fifty years old. These are bona-fide antiques! Now take your bona-fide antique, place it in a shop and pound the bejeepers out of hot iron on it. Antique dealers probably cringe at the thought (ha!).

[yesteryearforge]

James
I new you would come to your senses
Besides the alternative is just as expensive.
If i started collecting anodizing and chrome plating tanks and equipment some people would do nothing but cry about me hoarding all the good stuff so they either cant find it or they have to pay too much for it because those collectors and ebay are driving the price thru the roof.
Hmmm ----- Chrome and glass that just might catch on.
Maybe even be an oppurnity for a new forum
Lets see GLASS BLOWS Now theres a novel name for a new Forum.
The possibilitys could be endless.
Allright that enough of that
I think ill quit my bellyaching and go buy another anvil.

Mike Tanner