Angle-grind my ASO 'JCB' axle without damaging heat treatment?

[Work With Nature]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the great posts am learning a lot.

I have a question if you don't mind. Just went to the local junk yard (am in India) and the guys sold me a what they say to be a JCB axle but it looks a bit different. Definitely hard stuff, but it is rounded on one end (4 inch diameter) and 2 inches on the other end. Diameter is 4 inches if I cut the either end off. It is about just under two feet long with an indentation (section cut out 7inch by4inch) that could be used as an anvil but on edge it really does have an amazing rebound and ring. On flat well it is flat. But my question is should I cut into it. What about the heat treat if any? At what point can it be damaged. 

Would be great to know.

All the best,

David.

[Buzzkill]

A picture would be great.  However, in general if you're just grinding you probably won't get it hot enough to ruin any heat treatment.  If you can touch it without burning your hand it is definitely cool enough.  If you're worried about it you can grind a little, stop when it's getting hot, let it cool, and continue working.  If you start to see temper colors then definitely stop, but with that much mass it should be hard to reach that point.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard David, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll discover there are Iforge members in India. The problem with just saying it in a post is we aren't going to remember as soon as we open another post or maybe even start typing a reply.

If it's 2' long I wouldn't cut it at all, I'd mount it on end and dress the ends as necessary. That much mass isn't going to overheat under a disk grinder unless you REALLY lean on it and don't let up. If you see a tinge of pale straw starting to show in the ground surface stop grinding, pour some cold water on it even. The color change is telling you it's warming up enough to start drawing the temper, softening the steel. 

If you make a stand that clamps it rather than welding it to something, you'll be able to flip it over and use both faces which means you can grind specialty bottom die shapes in it.

On end is FAR more effective than laying flat, the more steel directly under the hammer the more energy is returned to the work, this is called depth of rebound. Laid on it's side it flexes like a spring and disperses the impact energy over the length rather than giving some back.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Work With Nature]

On 8/25/2017 at 11:17 AM, Buzzkill said:

A picture would be great.  However, in general if you're just grinding you probably won't get it hot enough to ruin any heat treatment.  If you can touch it without burning your hand it is definitely cool enough.  If you're worried about it you can grind a little, stop when it's getting hot, let it cool, and continue working.  If you start to see temper colors then definitely stop, but with that much mass it should be hard to reach that point.

Thanks,

Just went out and tried as you suggested, it is amazing how little heat gets created by the friction of just grinding. You were right. Had me worried for a bit but no need.

Planning for the time being to clean the face a bit but not so sure if I even need to cut the top bit off, I read about the limiting factor being the hammer head one uses. But if I do cut then I will take my time.  

OK so here are some pictures and anyone might know what it is off please let me know. Guy said excavator (JCB) axle? Don't really need to know, would just be great to know.

Side is 4 inches, upright picture with the small stub is 3 inches and upside down picture is rounded off. 

Got a spar of high carbon, well nearly sure. 

Cheers David. 

[Work With Nature]

13 hours ago, Frosty said:

Welcome aboard David, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll discover there are Iforge members in India.

Thank you for the welcome 

Ha, have actually come across quite a few post of yours. Your explanations are always very detailed and that helps a lot. 

Did the location. Just posted a few pictures of the what ever it may be and wow did a test again with the hammer and upright it just bounces off, sideways it just gives half the bounce. The piece being a more like 'spring' when on it's side makes a lot of sense, apart from the mass being a factor. So after you guys mentioned that the cutting would not overly damage the heat treat if done in moderation I went out and tried a bit of light grinding. Was surprised that it was barely warm to the touch. Gona skip on the cutting, or do you think I could gain much by cutting of that stub. Would have an extra inch, from 3 to 4. but is could help me bend stuff too. 

Cheers David. 

[Glenn]

Stand it on end with the mass under the impact of the hammer.

You can design the holder so it can be flipped end for end if needed, or removed and laid down on its side. You have the whole length, may as well use it.

[Work With Nature]

Thanks for letting me know.

Will do exactly that. just got to figure a way to clamp it now!

Wow can't wait to try it out. I think a tree stump with a hole in it might be good. Could wedge a longish piece of steel as a wedge as a way to clamp it down for now. 

Cheers David. 

[JHCC]

Drilling a hole that long and that big through a stump would be time-consuming. I would suggest the following:

1. Determine the total height you want. For most smithing, that's going to be about the height of your wrist when you're standing comfortably. (You will see many recommendations for the height of your knuckles, but that's a good height for when you have a helper swinging a sledge hammer.)

2. Subtract the length of your anvil from the total height.  This gives you the height of your base. 

3.  Get a block of hard wood with the grain running vertically, and cut it to this height. 

4. Build a wooden frame that will hold your anvil vertically on top of the base block. Make it wide enough at the base to be stable, but not so wide that you can't get in close. Make sure that it's strong enough that repeated hammering won't make it come apart.

This is just a suggestion, of course. Look at what you have around you, and get creative!

[Work With Nature]

Cheers JHCC for getting back to me,

That sounds like a good way to build a stand. I could pop the anvil in and out, and that would be very handy. Funny having the grain of the wood run vertically underneath the 'axle' would never have occurred to me and I went to carpenter collage back in Germany  

Getting in close is the awkward bit, but availability is really the problem. Can get coconut wood planks or even bigger trunks, but coconut wood is not very strong cut up and if I am to get close enough to the anvil then I will have a week point in the wood facing me right. But some steel braces might fix that and possibly I would have to do the same with a coconut stump. But then coconut has a very hard outer ring and a softer center. That makes it perhaps suitable in this case. Well it is more of a challenge than meets the eye as the axle weighs 40kg and could fall over if I don't get the proportions right. 

Here is my old well recently made, bodge job anvil stand that I used to hold two sledge hammers. See pic. Am very happy with the axle find as it will work way better. But the sledge hammers did work and even the stand  Will have to give it all some thought. Thanks for the help.

Cheers David.

PS any ideas anyone what it may be. Spark tested it and it gave of same sparks as a leaf spring but slightly more small flares.

 

[Buzzkill]

7 hours ago, Work With Nature said:

Gona skip on the cutting, or do you think I could gain much by cutting of that stub.

After seeing the piece there's no way I would cut it.  That should make a fantastic post anvil.  With the shoulder and flat spots you have some great places to help you clamp or fasten it to a stand.  You may also find specific uses for those shapes if you lay it on the side sometimes. My recommendation is dress the big end, use it for a few months, and then if you think of some adjustments that can make it better you'll have some working knowledge to base them on.  This is just my opinion, but that needs very little grinding and no cutting to serve you well.

[Glenn]

The stand only needs to be strong enough to hold the axle vertically. Hammering should, for the most part, be vertical as well, and not to the side. 

All this depends on what YOU have available to you as construction materials.

A quick stand for the axle would be a section of pipe that the axle would fit inside. Three angles *legs* would hold the pipe vertical.  Be careful of pinch points at the top of the pipe. The pipe would only need to be 2/3 of the length of the axle length. No pipe, then build a couple of rings from wide flat bar (leaf spring material will do) and weld or rivet  top and bottom rings together with an open space between them. Legs and braces can then be welded to the rings for stability. If the pipe, rings, etc are oversize, then use wedges to make up the difference. Or you could drill and tap 3 holes and use bolts to stabilize the axle in the pipe, ring, etc.

This is where you do not build a box, so you do not have to think outside the box. What do you have available that is round (ish) that the axle will fit inside? Old metal fire extinguisher comes to mind. Drive shaft from a large vehicle, old metal cooking pot, etc. Look around for anything that will get the job done. You said  coconut has a very hard outer ring and a softer center, so see if the ring will work to hold the axle vertically. Or put two of the coconut rings together one inside another for added strength. Put a steel band around them is you think it is needed, then connect the legs to the band.

The only issue would be the height of the top of the axle and what to use as a base. Unless you plan on using a sledge hammer, a 2 pound blacksmithing hammer would only require sand and a round piece of wood or metal in the bottom of the pipe. The wood or metal is to keep the axle from sinking into the sand.  With the rings idea you could place the axle on a large rock, box or container of sand of sand such as a 25-30 gallon steel drum. You could build a stand of wood with the end grain up, and strap or bind it together.

What you give up in trying to achieve a perfect base, you gain in being able to actually use the axle as an anvil. No one ever said you could only have one base and it has to be right the first time. Build a base and use it. After you use it a while, modify it or rebuild it as needed. Please keep us informed as to you progress.

[JHCC]

If you have access to some structural steel and a welder, make a flared tripod, something like the central structure of my stand:

 

Weld that around the pipe Glenn suggests, and you're good to go. 

[Work With Nature]

Thanks Glen and everyone for all the tips.

Actually after reading your post last night I had a good look around. I thought at first it would be impossible to go for your idea with the ring as I do not have a welder. Went this morning and had a look in several likely places. It is amazing what does get chucked out as just rubbish. Went to the NGO centers recycling place that I help out with and they had some pipe and even two pieces of box section they let me have. This is what I came up with (see pictures) thanks for asking about the progress. Spend the rest of the day angle grinding my new stand and am very happy with how it turned out. It still needs adjusting. But the way it works is, the ring you came up now acts like a kind of clamp whilst the legs hinge clamp the stump anvil dead center. Managed to get it after 5 min. of playing around to not budge. But I think the bit were the legs go into the ring will need to be just a little bit steeper.  as the ring 'clamp' needs to be allowed to give more tension on the inside of the legs by more hammer blows. Hope that makes sense. 

Thanks again for your ideas, appreciate it. 

David. 

Pictures are - first the way the legs clamp the anvil, second is the hole thing ( this was a picture before I got it really solid, notice the ring is all the way down) and third is a close up of the ring being made. 

On 8/26/2017 at 1:15 PM, JHCC said:

If you have access to some structural steel and a welder, make a flared tripod, something like the central structure of my stand:

 

Thanks JHCC,

OH it is times like these I really do wish I owned a welder  Nice stand looks very strong. 

Just posted some pictures on what I finally ended up making. 

Cheers David. 

Thanks Buzzkill,

It is good to hear that. The big end is very rounded though, for some reason that can not be seen so well in the picture. It might be good to work small sheets, especially as I do plan to make a shovel when I get better at this. So might stick with the 3 inch top bit for a wile, as you said it is good not to rush and try things out for a wile.. 

 

Excessive quotes removed

[JHCC]

That looks like a great solution. Well done. 

(Oh, and I don't actually own a welder -- I just have occasional access to one.)

[Charles R. Stevens]

Might I suggest welding a ring of round stock to the top of the pipe, a missed blow and that sharp edge will jack up your hand. If you have not caped the legs I would as well. Oiled sand inside the legs I'd a nice addition as well. 

A simple triangle of round stock will also stiffen the legs 

Lacking a welder. A spit piece of hose.

[Glenn]

Wrap the top of the ring with a piece of hose cut the long way for protection. You can do the same thing and protect the top of the legs. 

[Frosty]

That's looking good David, lots of overkill but it's better to over build than under build. I was going to suggest welding or bolting a piece of angle iron to a steel plate straight up and simply hose clamping the shaft to it. It can all be bolted together. My concern with your current stand is all the sharp ends of cut pipe on top. I dito Charles warning and precuations, a missed blow can not only damage your hammer but imagine missing and punching the end of one of those legs with your fingers gripping a hammer handle.

Give you the willies? It should. 

Slit rubber hose covering the edges is a good suggestion and old heater hose out of an engine should be easy enough to find if there are people around with motor vehicles. Hmmm?

I wouldn't do anything but smooth and shine up the ends of that shaft. Who cares where it came from, it's an anvil now? Well I suppose a boy shouldn't limit himself to one anvil eh? A rounded end is perfect for moving heavy stock, check out "rounding hammers" and watch a couple of Brian Brazeal's videos, I know he has one up explaining how and why he uses his hammer the way he does. The rounded pein of a rounding hammer moves metal very efficiently. Having a more or less matching anvil face would be SWEET.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Work With Nature]

JHCC, Charles R. Stevens, Glenn, Frosty,

Hope this is a better way to reply to posts now as the quotes apparently clog up the forum. Did not know.

Was going to just grind those sharp edges but that is a very good idea and I do have plenty of old hose pipe. It probably would be quite dangerous to not deal with them. Might need to mention, that the legs are far enough and out of reach of a missed blow though. The picture does not show that that well. The hole thing was a bit over kill Frosty and also do prefer over building. But then that is what I had available and the main issue was not having a welder. There were moments were I was thinking just that. You know I can appreciate having that rounded end on one of the faces and can't wait to try making such a hammer as you mentioned. 

I added 3 more wedges, I better put some pictures up just in case someone would like to build one similar. Here is the reason. After putting it together this morning and trying it for more than 20 min it kept getting loose and I had to re-tighten. After adding the additional wedges the thing became so solid that it just wont budge. It's clamped to the ground.

Just to mention, I did notice that the wedges and leg clamps, by themselves would probably not be enough. To be honest I am very surprised and extremely happy with it now. Will cut down the one wedge seen in the picture, noticed that as soon as I made it and add the hose for safety reasons, but other than that, am good to go

Cheers David. 

[Glenn]

You have missed the point of the hose. Let us say for the sake of discussion that the axle is 4 inch diameter, the ring is 6 inch in diameter, and the rectangular tubing for legs is 2 x 4 inches in diameter.

For the 6 inch diameter ring, the circumference is close to 20 inches. Cut a length of hose, garden hose, heater hose, radiator hose, etc to say 22 inches long and then slice it the long way, the 22 inches. Now open the slice in the hose and put the hose over the top edge of the 6 inch ring to form a protective surface. Trim to remove any excess hose, or hose overlap.

Do the same for the tubing. 2 + 4 + 2 + 4 = 12 inches so cut a length of hose to say 15 inches long and then slice it the long way, the 15 inches.  Now cover the top of the tubing to form a protective surface. The corners can be a bit tricky as you will have to remove a section of the inside of the tubing to form a miter.  You can remove a 45 degree section and the hose should bend and wrap around the corner. Practice a couple of times to get it right. Another way is to just cut a short section of hose with a 45 degree miter on each end. That is 2 each 4 inch lengths and 2 each 2 inch lengths. Then cover the top edge of the tubing. You may need to lash the tubing down to hold it in place with some wire and some small holes in the top of the metal being protected.

As for the wedges, a rubber stopper or cork stopper in the top of the wedge will do. Anything to reduce the pinch points and protect the hand or tool from impacting a sharp metal edge. 

When you get the wedge length figured out, you may want to trim off some of the excess. Once finalized you can trim off some of the bottom length of the legs there by lowering the stabilizing ring or collar. A lower ring or collar will also reduce the impact possibilities of a hand and the top edge of the ring.

You can see in the photo where a garden hose was slit the long way, used to cover the sharp metal edge, and then lashed down with wire, using holes in the metal just below the hose.

 

1 hour ago, Work With Nature said:

Hope this is a better way to reply to posts now as the quotes apparently clog up the forum. Did not know.

You are doing fine.

There is no need for quoting a reply that we just read. A quote should remind us of what your are replying to, and can be edited to just a line or two instead of the entire post. It makes reading the forum much easier. 

[VaughnT]

Very nice bit of engineering.  

If you want to go for a dressier stand that doesn't require welding, might I point your attention to what another IFI member came up with ----  https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/44551-my-new-block-anvil/

It would take a modicum of modification, but it will certainly get the job done without worry!

 

As for the rounded face, you could take it down a bit with your angle grinder, but you really don't need much more than the size of the hammer you're using.  Too many people get the wrong idea that they need a big flat face to make things when the big faces of the "traditional" anvil is there as a result of the overall mass necessary to make a good anvil that incorporates all the various features.  The most important thing is having the mass right under the hammer.  With a 4" face on an anvil that's 24" tall, you've got a fantastic anvil that puts all the mass right under where you're going to be hitting.  This makes her work at peak performance and you'll be able to make all manner of items, from simple hooks to full swords.  It's up to you!

 

[Buzzkill]

On 8/26/2017 at 3:52 AM, Work With Nature said:

OK so here are some pictures and anyone might know what it is off please let me know.

I still don't know for sure what it is from, but that's not like any axle shape I've seen.  Due to the shoulder and flat spots it looks more like a bit for a large machine to me.  If it was used to crush rock or some similar function it should wear very well as an anvil, though it may be difficult to grind.

Anyway, looking good on the anvil stand.  I am looking forward to seeing what you can do with it.

[Work With Nature]

Hi Glenn,

I did get your earlier posts about the safety precautions 100 % and how to implement them. But thanks for rechecking and sharing your ideas. The only reason I have not done any changes yet is because I had not read your posts about them by the time I had put up the last pictures. Ah well for another day. Nice bit of info cheers for putting the time in for sharing. 

Best wishes David.

 

Hi VaughnT,

Wow actually like that stand a lot. 

So got a lucky find then with that anvil

The other day was thinking about how the hammer moves around a big anvil much more and the steel stays put. With a smaller one the steel needs to move more and the hammer blows stay the same. Might this prevent faster cooling of the steel if one uses a smaller area? 

 

[Work With Nature]

Hi Buzzkill,

You know might it be of the stabilizing arms of a JCB. Maybe someone might know. 

Don't think it is an axle either.

As for what I will make with it, will let you know as soon as I forge an item, will stick it up here. Am trying to source more fuel at the moment and next project is a post vice from more scrap. 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Looks more like the insert from a hydolic breaker from a track hoe, but who cares, it's an anvil now 

Typicaly you chose a spot on the anvil and consistently aim for it with the hammers, wile moving the stock back and forth under the hammer. Much like a power hammer. 

[ThomasPowers]

I'd "guess" a concrete breaker too.  Many historical stake anvils have a quite rounded face due to a century or two of use: eg the stake anvil in the Roman Museum in Bath England or the "traditional round anvil" shown in the PhD thesis on Early Iron and Steel in Sri Lanka.  It's a different way of working and it helps to have a flat piece to finish off some things on.  Myself I would do a bit of grinding to that end...