Teaching Class; With Disruptive Student

[SReynolds]

Teaching class regularly for Ohio Historical Conn. (OHC) and this past weekend I enjoyed the pleasure of a paid student who was disruptive. Too see how hot the steel will become is entertainment. Which burns off and renders the clinker breaker useless. Employing the struck end of the hot-cutter as a hammer and cranking the Champ. 400 blower so fast it bounces off the ground...........time and time again.

So I got tired of telling him to knock it off, stop. Quit. Do it correctly. and soon it was the end of the day. I'm not sure I did the right thing. But I was xxxxxx but/and got paid, so maybe so.

His Grandmother said no other class/program would allow him to attend due to his age (13) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and know I know why. Not my first poor student, but the worst. All center about early teens.

I have had 11 and 12 year-olds perform much better.

So should I have sent him packing mid-day or ??????? 

 

[Daswulf]

I don't have experience here but I would think rules of the shop are rules of the shop, and you set the rules. Pay or no pay if they break the rules over and over at very least for someone that young I'd make them stay with their guardian and just watch from a distance. It's a safety issue.  I'm not in the situation so just in case I am one day this sounds like a good topic. 

[Buzzkill]

I don't have as much experience smithing or teaching as a lot of you, but a technique that works in some situations is to put the disruptive person "in charge" of something.  For some people if they are given a responsibility which makes them feel important they will start to focus on their task and slow down or stop the disruptions.  I'm not sure what would work in your situation.  Maybe he could be the monitor making sure everyone has their proper safety gear in place before forging begins or something of that nature.  Having said that, there are some people that you just can't seem to reach and at that point it's better for everyone to part ways as quickly as possible.

[rockstar.esq]

Tough call.  I'm not sure how your situation is arranged with the OHC.  If the shop and class are entirely under your control, you might require every sub-teen bring their own adult supervision for at least the first couple of hours.  Forging hot steel is a serious threat to life and limb.  A knucklehead that's ignoring your instruction is a safety hazard to everyone.  It's a lot easier to send a youth packing when their ride is standing alongside them.

[Daswulf]

18 minutes ago, SReynolds said:

 

His Grandmother said no other class/program would allow him to attend due to his age (13) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and know I know why. 

 

Age isn't much of a factor compared to attitude and discipline. I like Buzzkills idea as I think it could be good to give everyone a shot and if you could spark a little more discipline in a child it can help them for life. 

[JME1149]

As you alluded to, it's not so much about the age as it is the maturity of the kid. Too many variables to give you a right or wrong answer as to what you should have done, the bigger question is what can you do going forward? Can you blackball this kid for a couple years until he grows up? If not, grandma may bring him back for another class.

As long as he doesn't get injured, isn't jeopardizing anyone else's safety, and doesn't damage the tools, it sounds like you are being paid to be there to try to impart your knowledge whether they are receptive or not. If his actions pose a threat to safety, by all means shut him down and send him packing along with a very detailed explanation to grandma why.

I've experienced that frustration first hand, but when you get that one kid that really shows and interest and you actually make an impact on their life, it's all worth it.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Learning/ mood disorders also play a factor. In those cases an aid to "assist" (supervise) the student is certainly appropriate. It's iffy, as many kids aren't suffering from ADD but from a lack of discipline. In that case send them packing, with or with out an offer to let them come back.  

[ThomasPowers]

If I teach the younger kids I make it a requirement that a parent is present at all times.  This also makes it easier for me to refund the money and bounce a student from the class.  Disruption is a SAFETY ISSUE.  BTAIM I have taught a lot of borderline kids including one known as the demon child to other adults.  For him I found out he would do very well IF he watched what I was doing; but if I told him what should be done he would do anything but that.  His parents would scream at him; but do nothing so he ignores verbal input from adults...  Some kids feel they must be the center of attention; well in *MY* shop hot steel is the center of attention!

[Kozzy]

You can't win against poor impulse control--way too much to deal with in just one session.  If your gut told you it was that kind of thing, I would have booted the kid for safety reasons.

Some kids just get excited--so many have never touched even a screwdriver these days that they go overboard and have to test the limits of everything.  In that case, something like Buzzkills suggestion of a preemptive job might work.  At the very least, have them hold a chair down with their backside until they can calm down and be safe.

But--your first duty is to safety so you need a short fuse on that issue:  One warning and done.  That includes safety in terms of protecting equipment from damage.  A young teen is normally advanced enough to understand the one and done thing so an announcement at the start of the class should be part of the agenda and in the class literature that parents see.

It's been 30 years since I taught in a science museum daily and I used to be far more afraid of being the hard-nosed authority. I'd coddle the rowdies more than I should for a variety of reasons and they'd end up sucking the life out of the whole class.  I got old and have little tolerance for that crap these days (Get off my lawn!)  You can't make it great for the 95% of students if you spend your time battling one or two who never learned the basics of respect for other people and other's property.  Spending your time riding a problem makes it unpleasant for YOU also and it'll show in your teaching and attitude.

 

[Smoggy]

From my teaching experience, if any learner will not comply with your instructions in a potentually hazardous environment then you cannot continue to take responsibility for their safety, which could very well endanger the rest of the class. What dissorders or otherwise there may be are irrelevent. So it's a grab your coat you are out of here/

 

Here in the UK if children do not comply to instructions in mainstream education they are moved to specialist environment where a higher tutor to pupil ratio is available, often 1 to 1. and the teaching staff are more highly trained in dealing with various behavioural dissorders etc. In extra curricular classes outside school hours ( this is the specific area I was involved in ) younsters are accompanied by a parent or other adult and the courses designed to educate both parent and child, with "correct" behaviour being reinforced.

[arkie]

Thomas and Kozzy...well said!!!!!

[Crazy Ivan]

JWS had a student last year (14 iirc) who would not listen or pay attention. He was burning steel because he decided to chase around the local stray cats outside the shop. Among many other disturbances, J said he was the worst student he had ever dealt with. 2 months ago that same kid came back and actually did fairly well. He paid attention, asked questions and showed real interest and focous. Maybe it was the year gap where the kid matured, maybe he was on some medication, maybe it was my tattooed face also in the shop working and making sure no students wandered into my working area. (I'm told I'm very intimidating looking to those who don't know me lol). Either way, the same kid who was a disturbance and miserable for J to teach came back a year later and really did a fine job. Whatever the reason, the fact that J let the kid back the following year really proved his 1st impression wrong. Some kids are just over stimulated at different ages. I suggest biting the bullet and seeing if things turn around in the event that they ever come back. All within the confines of reasonable safety of course. Sometimes you gotta draw a hard line and kick someone out. 

 

For clarity, I'm telling J's story since I know he doesn't use this forum as often as he used to. Busy is busy. Hope I got the story correct in detail, but still. Any discrepancy in my recollection of how the story was told to me/what I witnessed still bears the same general point. 

[John B]

IMHO

Is it a creche or a class you are in charge of? 

How many in the class, and what ages?

Are responsible adults on hand for each student under a specified age?

Each student is responsible for their own and others safety and comfort within the group with the tutors ulimately responsible for all.

Do you have rules about behaviour in your work area, students need to know limits

The other factor you have not mentioned is your standing/position relative to the OHC and their policy regarding students. It is better to have one student upset than to have the rest of the group upset/disrupted by one person.

 

In this situation you have given this brief insight, which should have set off alarm bells .

3 hours ago, SReynolds said:

His Grandmother said no other class/program would allow him to attend due to his age (13) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and know I know why. Not my first poor student, but the worst.

 If this was mentioned prior to class, I would have insisted on a one to one session, then if it does not work out you can abort the class, and refund (or not) the fees.

In any case, one disruptive person can ruin it for the rest, my policy is to give one response to the situation in no uncertain terms, and if it continues, show them the door. (Even prepared to refund any fees if necessary)

If they want to return I will need some guarantees of better behaviour, or the same will happen again.

I have occasionally sent  students home if they did not conform to what was required.

I firmly believe there is no such thing as a bad student, only a bad/poor tutor,

Getting through to engage and understand their needs is the problem. In that situation I call off their involvment with that particular class, and go for the one on one, and then deal with the problems. 

It is also a matter of reputation long term, if people are involved in this situation, or see this taking place, are they likely to give out good messages or alarming ones, was it a good experience or one they would not want to repeat. ?

  

[SReynolds]

I said poor student.  Not poor human.  Yes you can be really bad at what you are doing and still be a good person.

I live in a small ohio town and never heard of a creche. So my answer is class. Anywhere from 1 to 5 students.  Anyone who can hold a hammer and swing it to strike 2, 000°F or more steel.

This day I had three. He was working by himself as the other two were there as couples.they have tasks. Plenty to do. 

I do discuss safety. I do show them how to perform all tasks. I do NOT tell them to only forge with a hammer . Why would I? I do NOT tell them to refrain from trying to spin the blower as fast as you possibly can. Why would I need to? I do NOT inform then to refrain from sabotaging the forge.  Why would I?

I had this visitor/ tourist kid grab the rivet forge blower handle and crank it so fast it fell over. So now I remove all handles if said tool  is not in use. I must protect my equipment from stupid. I can't change the people.

I had one young man who was there with his father.  Both taking class. This kid would drop what he was doing and run out doors and chase chipmunk and squirrels.  He had something going on bigger than you or I.

[John B]

 A British creche defined as " a nursery where babies and young children are cared for during the working day." differs from the US definition,  " a representation of the nativity scene. "

29 minutes ago, SReynolds said:

I had one young man who was there with his father.  Both taking class. This kid would drop what he was doing and run out doors and chase chipmunk and squirrels.  He had something going on bigger than you or I.

Thats fine Dad approved, and it didn't disturb the class 

4 hours ago, SReynolds said:

I'm not sure I did the right thing. But I was pissed but/and got paid, so maybe so.

Things are way different at each side of the pond, you asked for an opinion, That was mine. Life's too short to waste time, especially mine. it's the only time I'll ever get.

So long as you are happy with your situation, great.

Have fun and enjoy.

 

[Rashelle]

I go over rules and safety in the beginning, followed by short safety talks at all breaks and beginnings of each day. Even so far as to warn the students as to what happens if they pee on the toilet seats..... class gets shut down till said seat is clean, etc. First offense is verbal, second is verbal and sitting out, third verbal sitting out and guardian called. Note safety trumps those. They can go from 0 to sitting out with parent called at any time. Parents are talked to at end of days and beginnings of next days. I have the numbers on a clipboard available. Each kid is different, do what you have to to shut down safety issues. I also do written reports of behavioral and safety issues. With talking with the office staff to let them know to discourage or not let back if needed.

I've had ADHD, Aspergers, ADD, Autistic, and "learning disabilities and behavioral issues" in my classes/camps. It is really nice when the adults tell you about issues before you figure it out on your own. Note they don't very often. I ask if there are any such issues I should be aware of.

[notownkid]

I don't teach kids in blacksmithing but for 30 yrs did Firearms Safety training for the State F & G.  We told them what the rules were and told them they got 1 warning after that they were gone, Period.  I kicked my own kid out.  After a year they could come back for another try with the same rules.  One young person got kicked out 4 times at our place and twice at another in the area.  His mother had all the excuses and complained all the way  to the governors office who backed us 100%.  As a young adult he was in jail by 21 for armed robbery and assault.  My kid came back the second year passed with no problems and latter taught it for 20 yrs using his experience as a learning tool.

Blacksmithing may be some different but it all comes to safety, yours, other students and that student.  His guardians wouldn't hesitate  to sue you if something happened to the little darling nor would the other parents if you let him continue in that mode of behavior.  Just plain isn't worth dealing with this type behavior which is becoming the norm today.   

[George Geist]

My word this kid sounds like a real poster child for a prophylactic. Doubt if much can be done about  it honestly. Because he obviously has no respect for parents, teachers, or any other kind of authority eventually the day will come when he'll deal with the ultimate authority meaning the police. Till that day comes everybody this spoiled brat gets around has to suffer.

The good news though is that safety issues are things you can run with all day long. Put up a rope and keep everybody behind it. If they don't behave themselves stop and shut it down. Nowhere is it carved in stone you have to do anything for anybody. You're in control of your deal. If it doesn't operate as you want it to pack it up and go home.

George