Horseman1 Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Hi Frosty, I'm totally new to blacksmithing and I probably jumped off the deep end blindfolded so I'm struggling a little bit now trying to get my forge to heat the steel even above workable temperature. My burner does not seem to be burning efficiently, and I'm having a bunch of cold spots in the forge. I'm currently running propane at about 2-2.5psi. I've included a few pictures of my forge so you can see what I'm working with. Some things I have already tried include raising and lowering the burner height, opening and closing the doors on one side or the other, or adjusting the doors on either side for airflow. I originally had full bricks on the sides, then switched to split bricks to increase the size of the interior of the forge. Any suggestions you have for me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 You need to add a reducer fitting, and a smaller mixing tube. or a reducing fitting and an internal sleeve, to do the same trick. As to what you have for a gas orifice, I'm not even going there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 12, 2021 Author Share Posted January 12, 2021 Ups'; it looks like you already saw to adding a reducer. Unfortunately that only leaves the gas orifice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted January 13, 2021 Share Posted January 13, 2021 Just curious if you've tried increasing the gas pressure? 2-2.5 pounds sounds low to me. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 (edited) I have been looking to find some answers on what is going on with my burners, but cant seem to find a definitive answers that explains truely why when I adjust my choke to introduce more air, I burn so far out of my burner. I just cannot get a good powerful flame without it extinguishing itself by burning so far out side the my burner. As a quick run down, the main burner tube has 8- 1/2" holes for air, is 1" in diameter and 8" long, which is inserted into a 1 1/4" tube 1", and that tube is 4" long. I am using an .035 mig tip and my supply lines are 1/8" diameter pipe. I can adjust the mig tip location in relation to the air intake holes to where ever I need them if that helps. I have attached a couple pictures of the setup, maybe someone has some good insight, which I'm sure someone does, that can help me get this worked out. Maybe I need to toss the whole setup out the window. Pictures show construction, with air holes blocked, with air holes slightly open, and last but not least, when i give it to much air and the flame burns outside of burner assembly. These same conditions apply regardless of PSI of propane, tried at 5, 10 and 15 psi. Anyways, if anyone can help, it would be much appreciated. Edited January 15, 2021 by philb86 Forgot info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Who designed your burner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 15, 2021 Author Share Posted January 15, 2021 There is a lot going on with your burners; some of it is easily fixed, and some of it NOT. Let's begin with those air holes; turn them into slots. Next. use a grind stone in something a whole lot faster than a drill motor to bevel at least the forward end of the slots on their inner surfaces; the knife edge should end up on their outer surfaces. Then, send flame photos, and we'll see what further is actually needed, and how easily it can be managed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 52 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Who designed your burner? Just a combination of ones I've seen and measurements that ive read about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 One other easy fix will be the flame retention nozzle. You have welded yours in place, but you can still improve them. The ideal length of nozzle over hang equals the inside diameter of the mixing tube. Add 1/8" to that length, so that you can shorten it back a few thousandths of an inch at a time, while checking the flame. Once the secondary flame comes close to disappearing, STOP!!! Chances are that only 1/16" of extra length will remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, philb86 said: Just a combination of ones I've seen and measurements that ive read about. That is a common mistake. Without knowing the hows and whys of devices trying to design one or build one by mixing and matching other designs is so unlikely to turn out well it's . . . For example how do you know which bits of which design to use? How do you know why it does what it does? Listen to Mike, the burner you built is essentially a really poor copy of his (no offense Mike), world renowned design. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphafarrier Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: The ideal length of nozzle over hang equals the inside diameter of the mixing tube. Add 1/8" to that length..." Mikey, is this true, or did you mean the inside diameter of the flame nozzle? In your book you ask for a lot more overhang than the inside dimension of the mixing tube, for instance the 1/2" burner uses a 1" overhang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: One other easy fix will be the flame retention nozzle. You have welded yours in place, but you can still improve them. The ideal length of nozzle over hang equals the inside diameter of the mixing tube. Add 1/8" to that length, so that you can shorten it back a few thousandths of an inch at a time, while checking the flame. Once the secondary flame comes close to disappearing, STOP!!! Chances are that only 1/16" of extra length will remain. Mikey, I did come to realize that my nozzle was essentially far to long. I had tried positioning the orifice for the gas before and after the air intake holes and all inbetween. Nothing helped just by doing that. I did end up cutting a piece of the 1" pipe to a 2" length and slipping it into the end of nozzle to essentially shorten my nozzle to an inch, with my gas orifice positioned just past the set of intake holes closest to the burner. Voila, I now have an actual burner that works. It will definately need some fine tuning though. I will cut my nozzle to 1 1/8" per what you suggested, then I have some room to play with to fine tune. My only question to you though, by putting that extra 2" of 1" pipe to get my burner to work, once I shorten that nozzle I'm guessing I will have to add 2" to that 1" pipe to have an effective 9" of 1" pipe before my nozzle. Does that make sense? 1 hour ago, Frosty said: That is a common mistake. Without knowing the hows and whys of devices trying to design one or build one by mixing and matching other designs is so unlikely to turn out well it's . . . For example how do you know which bits of which design to use? How do you know why it does what it does? Listen to Mike, the burner you built is essentially a really poor copy of his (no offense Mike), world renowned design. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, I completely agree on that being the problem. I should have used my brain better than I did, especially being a mechanical engineer knowing how flow should work with venturi's and such. But, I jump in, and sometimes I end up in over my head initially. Eventually I figure it out if I dont, I'm glad I have guys like you and Mikey that are willing to help and have an abundance of knowledge you are willing to share. Once I get the nozzles shortened later tonight, I will try them and post some pictures of what my flame looks like. Though as I state above, I'm taking a guess that wont be enough, and I will have to add in a 2" section of the 1". But we will see. Thank you all for the help, i appreciate it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 45 minutes ago, philb86 said: Voila, I now have an actual burner that works. It will definately need some fine tuning though. 56 minutes ago, philb86 said: I'm guessing I will have to add 2" to that 1" pipe to have an effective 9" of 1" pipe before my nozzle. Does that make sense? The nine diameters rule is from the front most of the air openings to the end of the mixing tube. Okay, next thing for fine tuning is to place the forward end of your gas orifice somewhere between 1/4" and 3/8" behind (back of, to the rear of, short of) the forward end of the forward most slots. Please excuse my pounding the points home; it isn't personal. Lots of other people have made similar burners, and need similar help. If this positional tuning doesn't have much affect, we shall need to take a closer look at your gas orifice. Good luck, and get back to us for round three Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 The nozzle is also missing a step if we are comparing this to a Mikey burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: The nine diameters rule is from the front most of the air openings to the end of the mixing tube. Okay, next thing for fine tuning is to place the forward end of your gas orifice somewhere between 1/4" and 3/8" behind (back of, to the rear of, short of) the forward end of the forward most slots. Please excuse my pounding the points home; it isn't personal. Lots of other people have made similar burners, and need similar help. If this positional tuning doesn't have much affect, we shall need to take a closer look at your gas orifice. Good luck, and get back to us for round three Mikey, if im understanding correctly, does this conceptual drawing illustrate what you are speaking of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 Your drawing shows the distance correctly about where the end of the gas orifice is. Again; the nine-diameters is from the forward end of the air openings to the end of the burner tube. You also need to either taper the flame retention nozzle about 1/8" larger thanf its starting diameter in about 1-1/2" of length, or put a spacer ring between the main burner tube and the flame retention nozzle. And that is nine actual inside diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RToons Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I have build several forges and the one thing I learned is to stick to the Frosty T-Burner requirements[hope name is correct]. I have asked help from day 1 from Frosty/Glenn & others and after a year of positive feed back I ended up with a GOOD working forge. I have only made 7 knifes of truck/car springs & other parts but what enjoyment it is. The handles are another story but I continue on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 14 hours ago, philb86 said: I jump in, and sometimes I end up in over my head initially. I wasn't gigging you Phil, we all tend to get in over our heads picking up new skills. It's as much for other folks wanting to build burners as you. Mike, I and other knowledgeable guys spend I don't know how much time talking new folks through burner mis-builds. Welcome to the club. Thank you RToons, it's my pleasure. Phil isn't building a T burner, he's building one close to a Mikey type 4-5(?). Other than offering encouragement, THE man is doing the tutoring, so I'm just following along to pick up what I can. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 16, 2021 Author Share Posted January 16, 2021 I don't think of them as kind of like my burners anymore. It looks like certain principles and design elements are becoming well known; as such, I find these builds encouraging. I drew heavily on Ron Reil's mini-forge when coming up with my first five-gallon propane cylinder forge; it has since gone on to be a standard sorta-kinda design on TouTube. When something becomes popular, it just becomes public property Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 9 hours ago, Frosty said: I wasn't gigging you Phil, we all tend to get in over our heads picking up new skills. It's as much for other folks wanting to build burners as you. Mike, I and other knowledgeable guys spend I don't know how much time talking new folks through burner mis-builds. Welcome to the club. Thank you RToons, it's my pleasure. Phil isn't building a T burner, he's building one close to a Mikey type 4-5(?). Other than offering encouragement, THE man is doing the tutoring, so I'm just following along to pick up what I can. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, that was more of a laugh at myself, I knew it was all in good fun. When I first started talking to DasWulf about getting set up to forge, I told him the same thing. When I look to learn a new skill, I'm an all in type of person. Most of the equipment I have in my shop is some sort of home built unit Ive built, and usually over built haha. My PID controlled heat treat oven for my knives, 2 x 72 belt grinder, etc. I am thankful though that guys like you and Mikey are patient with guys like me that ask a ton of questions. Usually more to the extent, what did I screw up and why doesnt it work, after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 19 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: Your drawing shows the distance correctly about where the end of the gas orifice is. Again; the nine-diameters is from the forward end of the air openings to the end of the burner tube. You also need to either taper the flame retention nozzle about 1/8" larger thanf its starting diameter in about 1-1/2" of length, or put a spacer ring between the main burner tube and the flame retention nozzle. And that is nine actual inside diameter. Mikey, so far what I did was shortened the nozzle to 1 1/8". Then took some pictures with at 5, 10 and 15 psi of propane, with the air intake holes wide open. I will have to see if I can get into my buddies shop to use his lathe so that I can put a taper on the nozzle. Over all length wise, the burner falls just shy of the 9 actual inside diameter by just over 1/16" of an inch. This also with the orifice being right on the most forward edge of the forward air intake slot. I tried it at 1/4 - 3/8" back from there and the flame was much less defined and concentrated. If I end up needing more length and definately the taper in the nozzle, I will have to remake the burners as well as modify my forge body the accept some large diameter pipe to make the nozzle as you are saying. Anyways, let me know how the burn looks at the 3 pressure settings. I appreciate the help and patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, philb86 said: the burner falls just shy of the 9 actual inside diameter by just over 1/16" of an inch. If I end up needing more length and definately the taper in the nozzle, I will have to remake the burners as well as No; we are going to do things the easy way. First thing is that 1/16" on this measurement is nothing; forget about it. You don't need a lathe to taper the flame retention nozzles. You can revolve them on a heavy pipe to make this minor taper; do it cold, taking your time, with lots of light taps; not a few heavy taps. What would make the most improvement on your burners would be the air opening changes I suggested; it isn't a matter of enlarging them; it's a matter of reducing drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 8 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: No; we are going to do things the easy way. First thing is that 1/16" on this measurement is nothing; forget about it. You don't need a lathe to taper the flame retention nozzles. You can revolve them on a heavy pipe to make this minor taper; do it cold, taking your time, with lots of light taps; not a few heavy taps. What would make the most improvement on your burners would be the air opening changes I suggested; it isn't a matter of enlarging them; it's a matter of reducing drag. All things I can do. I will make those changes and give it a shot. As far as flame refinement goes, am I to expect to see less orange flame at the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 Yes and no. Most of the orange is do to poor combustion. But some of it (very little) may be do to oxidation of particulates, which would end after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 Ok, I will make some adjustments and take some more pictures to post tomorrow. Thanks Mikey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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