Mikey98118 Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 No problem. I like these little puzzles. I also expect some resistance to following all my advice. You may not even need to follow all of it to obtain your goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Ok Mikey, I beveled the air intakes, flared the burners towards the end, just wasnt getting the whole entire pipe to to taper or swell. The orifice is at 1/4" behind the most forward air intake holes. The burners are randomly blowing out though now as well. 5psi 10psi 15psi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 3 hours ago, philb86 said: Ok Mikey, I beveled the air intakes, flared the burners towards the end, just wasnt getting the whole entire pipe to to taper or swell. The orifice is at 1/4" behind the most forward air intake holes. The burners are randomly blowing out though now as well. 5psi The new photos show you are also a good deal closer to your goal A think your flares will do for now; it is all to easy to go to far with them. We will change the burners a little at a time, until they suddenly become good enough. So, know it's time to have a look at your gas tubes and gas orifices. Please show us a photo, and tell us what the gas orifice size is; I suspect we will be changing them out for something much smaller. Don't worry if you seem to be in a corner. I've been doing this a long time. BTW, did you cut out the material between your forward and rear holes, to turn them into slots? Otherwise, doing the bevels will increase air speed through the holes, while leaving all kinds of cross currents in play. We need to make what is going on in your burners predictable. Can you get by with holes? Probably; but you can do a lot better with slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 One thing the photos show is that your flames are canted off-center with the burner axis; not badly, but it does nothing to help with stability. Either your gas tubes aren't centered, or the gas orifices are out of alignment. What I like to do about this is to use three equidistant socket head set screws a little way forward of whatever is being used to hold the gas tube in position; but bit forward enough to interfere with the sliding choke. If you are using a MIG contact tip for a gas orifice, check to see it axially aligned; they are soft, and sometimes come with a slightly bent threaded portion. Fortunately they are easily bent back in position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 15 hours ago, Mikey98118 said: One thing the photos show is that your flames are canted off-center with the burner axis; not badly, but it does nothing to help with stability. Either your gas tubes aren't centered, or the gas orifices are out of alignment. What I like to do about this is to use three equidistant socket head set screws a little way forward of whatever is being used to hold the gas tube in position; but bit forward enough to interfere with the sliding choke. If you are using a MIG contact tip for a gas orifice, check to see it axially aligned; they are soft, and sometimes come with a slightly bent threaded portion. Fortunately they are easily bent back in position. Mikey, I will be working on creating the slots, I had not done that yet. I am using an .035 MIG contact tip as my gas orifice. I will plan to get some pictures of all that, as well as drill and tap each burner tube for 3 set screws on each. I will get some pictures of that as well as some burn pictures once I get into the shop this evening and have complete opening the holes up to slots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Assuming that your burners are 3/4" size, a .025" contact tip should work best. At least drop down to a .030" tip. There is a lot of confusion about proper orifice sizes, because people don't realize that they are dependent on burner flow characteristics; not just on burner sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Ok Mikey, made some changes. Cut space inbetween holes to create 4 slots, a little rough but smoothed all edges as best I could. Added 3 set screws to be able to adjust the nozzles within the burner tubes to get them centered as well as possible. Need to hit the hardware store tomorrow to pick up some allen head set screws, only had some phillips head screws in my hardware box. I did notice that I had to choke off some of the air flow to get the burners to stay lit, they are no longer wide open. Burner tip is about 3/8" behind the forward most slot, the picture I am attaching was when it was closer to 1/4", but it seemed to stay lit and burn better at 3/8". Hopefully Im not forgetting anything. but here are the pictures of what my setup looks like. Overall Setup Close up of Air intake and MIG Nozzle 5PSI 10 PSI 15 PSI Just saw your last post, I will try the .030 MIG nozzles I have. Hopefully it still looks better than what it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, philb86 said: did notice that I had to choke off some of the air flow to get the burners to stay lit, they are no longer wide open. Burner tip is about 3/8" behind the forward most slot, the picture I am attaching was when it was closer to 1/4", but it seemed to stay lit and burn better at 3/8". Those are both good signs. About half of my burners must be choked unti their flame retention nozzles are incandescent, and then can be opened up copletely; They other half don't. I never figured out why. I notice that youur MIG tip isn't tapered. That leaves one more finishing touch that you may not need; does it help? Yes, but the smaller the burner the more it matters. 3/4" burners are maybe yes, maybe no. Don't forget to bevel at least the forward ends of your air openings; it makes a difference. Your flame photos are getting closer all the time; they will make an encouraging path for others to follow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: I notice that youur MIG tip isn't tapered. That leaves one more finishing touch that you may not need; does it help? Yes, but the smaller the burner the more it matters. 3/4" burners are maybe yes, maybe no. Don't forget to bevel at least the forward ends of your air openings; it makes a difference. I must have missed that detail in prior posts on tapering the nozzle. Ill throw them in the drill and taper them on the belt grinder, as well as drop down to the .030 nozzles that I had tried way back when I first started and couldnt even get them to burn. The forward most edge of all the slots do have a pretty nice bevel as you suggested. More pictures to come tomorrow with the tapered nozzles. Going to throw in some of the forge body and stand that I will finish up tomorrow as well. It just wont have the final coatings on the IFB brick. Made a mistake not researching the MEEKO refractory cement I used to line the floor of the forge. Did I mention I jump in feet first, and it bit me again. Haha Thanks again for all the help Mikey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 Its a favor to us both. Lots of guys have built this particular burner design. Some of them seem to work okay, and others don't. So it's a great opportunity to reduce the confusion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 So, from my viewpoint, how these burners work, with holes instead of rectangular air openings are not "beyond the pale"; it depends on how big and where those openings are. Just roll the dice. I have seen some that weren't half bad, and others that were dreadful. If and what people choose to do about their individual burners, are maybe a little clearer, thanks to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 MIG contact Tips for .023” welding wire have a .031” nominal orifice diameter. Tips for .025” welding wire should have a 0.034” nominal orifice diameter. (ensure that you aren’t being sold .023” tips as .025” tips). Tips for .030” welding wire have 0.038” nominal orifice diameter. Tips for .035” welding wire have 0.044” nominal orifice diameter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Hey Mikey and all, sorry I'm a lurker and chat with you all that much. Anyway, Mikey I started calling +8 when reading mig tips. I see that I'm close, close enough for a good starting point when planning out a burner. ☺ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Morning folks, I put this together as an article on a facebook page I am on. I have tried to compile and compact some of the basics that I have gathered creeping all your conversations in these threads. I am leery to ask for a critique buuuuuut I guess I should get an opinion from the people I stolearned it from. ***Build a burner with math*** This isn’t exact but loose parameters to start with when troubleshooting a burner some dude on YouTube “dEsIgnEd”. The measurements used by the previous gen were used based on a lot of trial and error along with studying the more technical sciencey side of what makes a burner work the way “we” need them to. I won’t drag out how’s and why’s here but here’s a basic cheat sheet. If you look at the main atmospheric burner designs (by the original designers) you will find a lot of similarities or "rule of thumbs" to get the most out of your burner. The particular design of the burner and it's environment affects the ratios of these obviously but it is a place to start especially if you're trouble shooting a burner that you wung it on. (3/4" Burner) Mig tip: .030 .033, .035 (+8 for apx actual opening) .038, .041, .043 etc 3d print nozzles 0.8mm, 0.9mm, 1.0mm sold in exact size, .9mm = .9mm. (these create a higher speed jet than the mig tips due to the shape inside) Intake: 1.5-2 x ID of mixing tube Orifice depth from throat: .5 x ID of mixing tube Mixing tube length: 8-9 x ID of mixing tube Nozzle: 1/8" over mixing tube size 1" ID, apx 1 1/4" past end of mixing tube Flare: is a 1:12 and 1 1/14" past mixing tube about the same as the straight nozzle but "flared" (roughly) Make your flare/nozzle adjustable so that you can adjust the overhang by sliding and locking with a set screw while tuning in your forge. **don't get hung up on PSI, it's only relative to YOUR burner**. Or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Trevor84 said: (these create a higher speed jet than the mig tips due to the shape inside) NO! They create less friction, and are much easier to clean in small orifice sizes, than tubular gas orifices. Less friction means lower gas pressure needed for them to work properly. But, so far as acceleration of gas molecules is concerned; tubular orifices create faster gas streams. That said, this is only a technical point. The why is less important than the how of these things And the how boils down to greater convenience and more choices, FOR A LOT LESS MONEY THAN MIG TIPS nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another FrankenBurner Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I tried to distill burners 101 in a similar fashion. Somewhere along the way, I realized that each burner has its own dimensional happy place. The only rule of thumb that seems to fit most of the time is the 8-9 mix tube length. I have found that even mig tips vary a good deal. I have an 035 tip which measures 0.041 and another which measures 0.047. If your target is folks who watched YouTube, concluded that a burner is just a little hole spitting gas down a piece of pipe, and put something together based on that, most likely they don't speak burner. As such, nozzle, mix tube, and flare may mean nothing to them. If I didn't happen to know what you were talking about already, there is a good chance I would have no idea what you were talking about. Your intake section, are you referring to the reducer diameter on a linear burner? The nozzle section math doesn't add up. The ID of 3/4" schedule 40 pipe is 0.824" + 1/8" = 0.949". That is less than most use and nozzle overhang can vary based on fuel/air mix velocity, nozzle ID, and back pressure. Mostly, there is just not enough information to demonstrate your points. I'm not trying to knock your idea. It's just not as black and white as all that. If it were, burners 101 would be a lot shorter. I think you could provide more information on each point to give a ball park sense of each bit's purpose in the machine. It could illustrate that there is more going on than just fuel down a tube. You could also point out that there are several known good working plans and it might be easier to just build one of those. If they want to continue running with their own thing, direct them here. Helping others with 'on the fly' burners requires even more understanding. Even still it involves a bit of extrapolation. As Mikey put it, these are puzzle burners. We can all help with what we know and we can all learn from the puzzles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 (edited) Mikey, I was just reading back over the discussions regarding printer nozzles and I think I remembered something AFB was talking about incorrectly wen I mentioned speed. AFB, I kinda put this together as a trouble shoot for guy's that have botched up someone's design not to actually build a custom from scratch so I would be sharing it with someone that already has an rough idea. With regards to my math on the nozzle is a typo should read "OD" which is what Mikey's step nozzle works out to with the. When it comes to the overhang I thought that's basically where Ron Reil says to start on his ABANA site. (I know that you know a LOT more than I so please understand that I am not arguing just trying to understand, I can almost guarantee that I will never be giving attitude or what not.) When it comes to my very loose vague math I have based these off of the main stream burners. If you take the area of the intakes on all the burners they are all quite similar are they not? Orifice depth in throat on the Mikey, Sidearm, Reil with the mig tip and even the Frosty mod. I totally understand how much some burners can be and I am definitely not trying to re-invent the wheel or anything, I have been rereading these threads for the last 3 years so I know better than that. Like you say take something like Larry's Z burner it falls out of my intake calculation with what I believe is a 1" wye with a busing to 3/4, this would be smallest intake opening surface area but this is probably because of how it flows or the original EZ burner's orifice depth is outside of my calculation too. Then there's burners like the Oliver, Atlas, Hybrid etc I am over on FB a lot trying to help where/when I can, so I guess my knowledge level is somewhere between here and there if you will Does it make more sense in that context? hack to the flare 3/4"sch40, 1"x1" sch20, 1 1/4"x2" sch80. slit the 1" tap and set screw will expand the spacer to lock the nozzle in place. there is 1 1/2" from the end of the spacer to the end of the nozzle itself this just represents the step nozzle Edited January 19, 2021 by Trevor84 trying to make smaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Trevor84 said: am over on FB a lot trying to help where/when I can, so I guess my knowledge level is somewhere between here and there if you will So seem to be doing okay to me; keep on truckin. I like the ballppeen hammer as a taper tool idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: Your intake section, are you referring to the reducer diameter on a linear burner The surface area of the intake's opening be it linear or ejector, add up the area of both sides of Frosty's T or Mikey's burner they are similar I believe at least last time I added it up IIRC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Another FrankenBurner said: I have found that even mig tips vary a good deal. I have an 035 tip which measures 0.041 and another which measures 0.047. Wow! I knew quality was diminishing over the last twenty years, but had no idea it was getting that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 The first time I tried the ball peen idea was back in the beginning before I realized how much steel shrinks as it cool and got the peen too deep and the dang flare locked on. I had to cut it off and put a nik in the side of the peen it doesn't affect anything but it bugs me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 19, 2021 Author Share Posted January 19, 2021 And that will provide fair warning to others. I try not to critic newbies more than they ask me to; you guys have most of the new ideas. We want you to keep them coming.m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philb86 Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 32 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said: So seem to be doing okay to me; keep on truckin. I like the ballppeen hammer as a taper tool idea Same way I flared mine after it really wasnt moving over a mandrel. Works quite well to flare the end. 23 minutes ago, Trevor84 said: The first time I tried the ball peen idea was back in the beginning before I realized how much steel shrinks as it cool and got the peen too deep and the dang flare locked on. I had to cut it off and put a nik in the side of the peen it doesn't affect anything but it bugs me. It happens quick too! Then you realize you just went a tab bit too far, and its stuck. I learned the same when I tested using the ball peen hammer on a scrap piece of pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor84 Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Shall I call you Phil? You are right on the money, it's like you were standing over my shoulder watching me curse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted January 20, 2021 Author Share Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Trevor84 said: The surface area of the intake's opening be it linear or ejector, add up the area of both sides of Frosty's T or Mikey's burner they are similar I believe at least last time I added it up IIRC Okay, it is time to bring up something about where a Frosty burner and mine part company; they are both are jet ejectors, but The "T" burner has something in common with linear burners, and that is what causes swirl in their incoming air. The middle opening is smaller than than the two end openings; this creates a whirlpool effect. The reducer fittings on linear burners do the same thing. Therefor, the amount of reduction matters because of spin; not volume. Mikey burners create spin in the incoming air because of sideways movement (I think, but don't know for sure). While I can attest that the wider the air openings are the faster the incoming air will spin...I've no clue as to why that is so. I knows what I knows, but not what I don't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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