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I Forge Iron

Burners 101


Mikey98118

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I call them a gun because that's what the furnace service called them when he was working on our boiler and we got to talking. 

In my opinion ribbon burners are currently the "NEW THING," fad. I use my single nozzle forge as or more often than the NARB forge. I use my oxy propane torch for localized heat. Propane burners heat everything that gets close to the door and anything inside the door comes to forging temps. Makes peining a rivet without causing deformation to some shapes a real trick. 

Mike and I have different motives and logic to the way we do things so there are times we make the other grit his teeth. We certainly agree on some things though.

There is NO perfect anything forge related. Your skills and needs change as you practice the craft most of us have our first forge or two collecting dust somewhere. One of the universal mistakes humans make is designing: tools, equipment, methods, etc. when we don't know how to do it. Search Dunning Kruger, they wrote an excellent article on the subject. So good it's called the "Dunning Kruger Effect" even.

Anyway, I'll be following along and doing my best not to jump in. Mike has it covered nicely. My name came up tough. :)

Frosty The Lucky.

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41 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Mike and I have different motives and logic to the way we do things so there are times we make the other grit his teeth. We certainly agree on some things though.

If we agreed on everything, one of us would be unnecessary.

There are times when you change my views.

There are times when I need to reflect and make up my mind about something you think; that can take months, 'cause I'm slooooooow, and getting slower.

There are times when I agree to disagree; these are the best times, because people have sharp choices to make for themselves. However, because of you, I have learn that the phrase "loyal opposition" can sometimes have meaning, for I am your loyal opposition :)

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Now I'm all misty eyed, curse you! If we agreed all the time we wouldn't have anything to talk about. You tend to make me reevaluate darned near everything I think I know about burners. Among other things.

Loyal opposition works I guess but we don't disagree with everything; how loyal is that? :huh:

One of the toughest things for me though is NOT getting involved in conversations between other folks and burners. Mike and  have always made different burners and both work but so many other guys are coming up with really SWEET designs. I have to bite my tongue and not jump in and say NO that isn't how it's done! Robert Grauman taught me that one when theforge list and artmetal list were about the only place to fid metal heads online. He visited the state and we took a sight seeing day trip. We were talking burners and I hadn't brought my graph paper so describing the T burner was all verbal.

Maybe a year later I get an excited email from him saying he'd made a 1 1/2" T burner and was casting iron in 20lb. pours with it. He included a picture and I ALMOST hit send on the email explaining how he'd gotten it all wrong. The pic showed a beautiful flame and he'd been casting iron with it so I held my keys.

The pic? A "Sidearm" burner. 

Different is good, even the ridiculously barmy ideas are good. Everything is a lesson, some of the best are the, "DON'T DO THAT!:o" lessons. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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Us-uns that are not "burner heads"; are hoping new burner gurus are coming along that are willing to help others as we know that  folks are not around forever.  Some of us were sweating bullets just with the Birch incident!  Shoot I'm aging too; though as a traditionalist I've asked for a log pyre and not a gasser!

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I'm answering fewer and fewer burner questions all the time, other people are answering well enough I don't need to. Some of the new gang are making things I don't have a good enough handle on to opine in a meaningful way. Worse many folks think I know my stuff even regarding things I don't know enough about. 

Not being around forever is a thing and I have a bucket list I'd like to start filling. 

Frosty The Lucky.

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The only part of this that is surprising is that, as near as I can tell, naturally aspirated gas  burners first started being built by the Aussies; by the end of the nineties, when I got involved they were already doing oil burners, and now pretty much zip. Did that generation all die off or something?

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Not to change the subject as this is a great thread.. But Mike since you brought up oil burners.. 

I've been interested in oil burners for a long time..  Most of the early production work here was done with oil burner forges..  Love to pick someones brain about getting them setup correctly..  Lots of them burned the thick fuel oil from what I have seen so the pipes run along part of the forge for preheat.. 

 

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2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

as near as I can tell, naturally aspirated gas  burners first started being built by the Aussies

They've been around a LOT longer than that. When I started tinkering the internet wasn't so bloated with marketing drek and you could search the US patent server easily. 

The earliest NA burner patent I found was for in "Improved blacksmith's burner" made with pipe and a rolled conic intake flare from 30 years before the American Civil War, 1832 IIRC. Not long after the American Civil War someone evidently invented screw together plumbing and you see what looks just like a Reil type linear burner again patented as an Improve forge burner. They were burning Brown gas as fuel like most everybody.

I didn't have much luck with the British patent server but did find gas lights in American patent server that used linear NA inducers to feed the flame, registered in the first few years there was an American Patent office.

Jennifer: From what I've seen most oil burners either require serious oil preheating or a high pressure oil pump and a nozzle that atomizes the oil. 

At one time I was really interested in an oil fired forge but getting it to work well was so much more trouble and maintenance than propane I lost interest. There are some serious danger issues as well so I generally try to discourage folks.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Frosty,  from what I have seen they are pretty simple, but then again, when someone is using something daily it seems simple. 

I have never found any good source of information so have no idea of what it really takes. 

I have seen the newer production style atomizers using air pressure to syphon the oil into the stream which is then ignited.  

A great film is the Steven's axe company.. They were using oil fired forges and is probablly some of the best footage I've seen.  

I know that diesel fuel burner are being used but not quite as intersted..  I mean neat, but was more interested in the older tech..  

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Back in the day when epa was kicking off,used motor oil was closely monotored and disposal was expensive.  A friend had a garage heated by a 2 barrel wood heater.  He first dripped used oil into the heater but only created smoke while saving little wood.  We tinkered with a hydraulic pump driven by an electric motor that  resulted in so much smoke and stench a private school 1/2 mile away called fire marshal to report tires being incenderated.  When the deputy showed up he asked if we had gone outside to see the smoke.   Someone suggested it might be starving for oxygen so we added a blower.  Like Frosty said "there's serious danger issues".   In short order the barrels began glowing,self induced draft sounded like a train,flue pipe melted and the shop roof was damaged before oil could be turned off.  

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Have you guys checked out Colin Peck's "The Artful Bodger's Waste Oil Furnace"? He has been pretty successful with an oil burner for a casting furnace. I have his book but only got it recently so I have not had a chance to do a build. Exhaustive reading & research will be completed first of course.

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There is a ton of info and video's on casting furnaces as well as for heating sources for shop or home. 

 

Not much in terms of forges though.

 

Marc1 from what I remember uses an oil fired forge.  But not sure as to how he has it setup. Could be totally wrong.

 

I think that the topic should have its own thread and has derailed the burner 101 long enough. 

Maybe one  of the admins can bisect this out. 

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2 hours ago, pnut said:

I seem to remember reading something you posted about an oil fired forge and a mushroom cloud. Am I mistaken? 

Pnut

That was a pottery kiln, a power failure stopped the burner for a little while and when it was restarted there was a large cloud of fumes that went up like a small fuel air explosive. I wasn't present but a number of the neighborhood folks were. 

I don't recall who posted the video of the waste oil burner, marc or another Aussie but it burned oil in a chamber then blew the flame into a forge, all very yellow and fluttery when it slowed down some. He never drew a piece of yellow hot steel from a forge even if he beat on one in the video. What drew my attention was the oxy accet set with the hoses running into the area by the anvil.

The oil forges I'm familiar with that are efficient and effective are all in commercial settings and pretty large.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Using 120V Angle grinders for building burners

When I wrote Gas Burner for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns, hand held rotary tools were no longer expensive, but that wasn’t yet true of their accessories. The “newfangled” 4-1/2” angle grinders of the day, were really just re-geared 4” grinders being marketed because their grinding wheels were far less expensive than the new 4” wheels. At the time, these grinders were a little under powered, which made them a lot safer for cutting work than the high-power models being pushed in today’s market.

    Also, the that text’s smallest burner was ½”, which is the largest size  I deal with these days. Times have changed. You don’t need to use an angle grinder to build burners and heating equipment.

    But what about people on a shoestring budget? What about using an angle grinder for cutting into forge shells, etc.? High-speed plus high-power still equals high hazard…but hazard levels can be reduced. By starting out with one of the weaker grinders like an old Makita 4” or 4-1/2” grinder, you can bring power down to the level of a 3” 280-watt angle grinder (big bucks and hard to find) by reducing it to half speed with a router speed controller; and these are cheap.

    The hazard level can be further reduced by changing out the 4-1/2” grinding wheel for a well-used cutting disc (around 3” remaining);is this a perfect solution? No, but it’s a whole lot better than no viable choices, for building as small as a 1/2” burner. As for even smaller burners; forget it.

    Or, you can buy a conversion chuck that allows 4-1/2” angle grinders to spin ¼” mandrels, and have the equivalent of a die grinder to work with. Where they fall short is in using them to drill holes; grinder speeds are way to high for drilling, with even the smallest drill bits. On the other hand, they only cost about $11

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Every time I pick up a grinder  with cutting disk my pucker string begin's to quiver so I use them very sparingly.  I have three 41/2 grinders,1 with flapper,1 with grinding wheel and 1 with knotted wire.  Recently when I needed to open a freon tank,I suited up fit for jousting,then only used the cutting disc to start cuts then finished up with a saber saw.  I wouldn't cut with Harbor Freight discs if they were free.  My carcass has too many things hurting already. 

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I use a long blade in my Sawzall by another maker and start the cut on a corner, once I've penetrated the steel I can cut "normally." 

Right angle grinders with cut off blades make me cringe and actually consider becoming a conspiracist. No way somebody who wasn't making money repairing people would invent something like that!

Frosty The Lucky.

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I utilize a 4.5" grinder my neighbor gave me.  It is old but way tooooo much power.  I use it to level metal or wood but stopped utilizing it to cut metal because every time I put in a metal cutting disc it snapped and went flying.  I have a twitch and that is not good when using a metal cutting disk with real power. I purchased one of those cheap 4.5inch angle grinders and have had NO issues cutting metal or snapped disks when using a metal cutting disc.  I guess less power is more forgiving on the metal cutting discs?

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I regularly use an angle grinder with an abrasive cutoff wheel.  I also use grinding wheels, flap discs, and cup brushes.  If I were to start a new smithy with limited funds, it would be the first electric tool I purchased.  I own several.  

I use them in my trade as well, so I have hours and hours of experience using them.  I do not fear using them but I keep a healthy respect.  Are there risks involved in using them, yes.  Understanding these risks, helps with safety.  It does not eliminate the risks, it makes you work differently to mitigate them.

My advice if you are new to angle grinders:  

  • If you know someone who has experience and can show you the ropes, it's worth asking.  So long as they are safety conscious.  A lot of guys are careless in their use.  They get away with it until they don't.
  • Buy a regular powered model, not the new high torque models.  I would rather have a tool that jams to a stop when torqued funny, than one which has enough power to keep on spinning. 
  • Never use a diamond coated cutoff wheel.  When torqued funny, an abrasive wheel will shatter which is better than a steel wheel which could instead torque the tool out of your hands and keep on spinning. 
  • Never use cheap abrasive wheels as they tend to shatter easier than better wheels.  The less shattering the better.  Never use cracked, frayed, or damaged wheels for the same reason.  
  • Don't put a 6 inch wheel on a 4 1/2" angle grinder.  
  • Make sure the max RPM of your intended accessory is rated higher than the RPM of your grinder.  I have seen cup brushes rated well below the standard grinder RPM even though they have the proper mount for the standard grinder.
  • Never stand inline with the cutoff wheel when cutting.  People tend to sight down the wheel for cutting straight lines.  If the wheel shatters, you don't want to be in that lineup.
  • Never put a sideways pressure on the cutoff wheel.  The cutoff wheel is not a grinding wheel.  The cutoff is designed to cut straight linear cuts.  You risk shattering the disk by pressing it sideways.  
  • Never take the guard off.  Not only does it guard you from shattering discs, it prevents you from sticking your fingers into the backside of the wheel, and it directs the sparks away from you when cutting.  I am surprised how often I see this problem. 
  • Whenever possible, use the side handle.  It is more ergonomic giving a better less fatiguing grip and two hands are better than one.
  • Wear your PPE.  For me this is generally goggles, muffs, and respirator.  I also like a leather apron to save my shirts/pants from sparks.  Some of my co workers like gloves.  I don't personally as I prefer a better grip.  
  • No loose clothing.  If something loose gets caught up in the grinder, the grinder winds it up.  Sometimes pulling the grinder into the clothing.  Imagine a loose t shirt, the grinder could pull itself straight into the belly/chest.  The cup brushes are more likely to grab something this way than discs.
  • Don't death grip the tool but always assume it could attempt to lurch forward at any moment.  Think loose but secure grip.
  • Never put muscle into it.  Let the tool do the job.  You are there to guide the tool.  Extra pressure will make it cut faster.  It will also wear you out faster, wear the wheel out faster, and makes it easier to jam the wheel either sideways in which case the wheel can shatter or inline which can cause the tool to lurch forward potentially out of your hands.  At first, I recommend light pressure.  Get used to how the tool moves and how this makes it try to move.  The angle grinder wheel spins clockwise when viewed from above, this causes it to pull forward when cutting with the wheel in a vertical orientation or kick to the left when the wheel is oriented horizontally.  You have to counter these movements.  The more pressure you push the tool into the metal, the more power the movement will have.
  • If you are fatigued, put the tool down.  

It sounds scary maybe.  So does an orange piece of metal to those who don't play with them.  I use my angle grinders regularly without hesitation.  

All that said, if I can cut it with the band saw, I will do that before the grinder.  Less noise and dust.  The exception being harder metals.  I would rather waste a cutoff disc than a bandsaw blade.  If I can grind it on the belt grinder, I will.  Even clean grinding is much easier than with a small rotating disc.  I also use a jig saw, sawzall, and a plasma cutter for cutting depending on what I am cutting, though they come out less often.

If I could have only one electric tool as a general blacksmith, it would probably be a 4 1/2" angle grinder.  You can cut, grind, and polish with one tool.  

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