Question about the effects of TV coverage

[JNewman]

1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said:

Smoothbore, I think the world agrees with you that skill isn't something you can simply buy.  I think it's worth pointing out that we're all on a continuum from raw materials to finished products.  The "consumer" mentality could just as easily mean that only posers use metal they didn't smelt, with coal they mined themselves.  If blacksmithing was exclusively limited to the folks who did everything themselves, the art, technique, skills, and technology would never have advanced as much as it has. 

You've written that making your own tools is the very essence of blacksmithing.  I think the skill required to make the tools (and everything else)  is the essence of  blacksmithing. 

Learning with a store-bought hammer, anvil, and tongs is still learning the skills of blacksmithing.  The idea that the only path to skill is through aboriginal level blacksmithing is false since many modern masters started their learning on complete equipment. 

If a master smith decides to buy a hammer, it's definitely not because they're lacking skill, they're just making a decision to trade for a finished product.

Looking down on "consumer mentalities" as a proxy for skill is an argument that doesn't hold up.  We're online, in 2016, and we're still hearing arguments akin to "The fountain pen is the ruin of all future literary achievement".  Somebody probably made that same argument about stone tablets. 

I find that whenever I go looking for idiots, they're constantly underfoot.  However when I try to share what I know, I end up learning from my students. 

Rockstar makes some good points.  I have the privilege of having a retired industrial blacksmith stop by my shop fairly regularly.  I have taken him to a few local blacksmith meetings as well.  The thing he is always commenting about is "they don't have the tools"  he made similar comments about my shop years ago.  An apprentice learning this trade  would have access to good tongs, hammers, cutting tools etc.  both to use and as study pieces to make the ones he would eventually make. Tongs are one thing that it is much easier to make a pair when you have a pair that is the same as you need right in front of you.

How many here have gone through the make a tool to make a tool to make a tool to actually make the project you are making.  If tool smithing is not your interest there is nothing wrong with skipping some of those steps just as an apprentice or  journeyman would have access to some of those intermediate tools. 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

It isn't just TV shows like FIF that are making an impact but eBay, YouTube, and Facebook pages dedicated to not just smithing but anvils, power hammers, etc... One Facebook page now has over 26,000 people following it, and they reached that level in only a couple of years which is far faster than Iforgeiron did. I have people ask me constantly if I watch FIF, I tell them no, I killed my TV around 8 years ago because of shows like that.

Personally I feel that smithing is experiencing a bubble price wise, others on here have told me that there is no bubble and the prices will only continue to climb. Of course these are the same people buying anvils for cheap, or having them given to them, and then flipping them for big money. They love the hype , and help to fuel it, because they are making a lot of money off of it. Personally I see that as more love of money than the craft itself. I plan on giving away, or selling for what I paid, when it comes time to dispose of what I have. I would rather help someone along than profit from my good fortune. With used beat up anvils approaching new made prices the prices should slow down some, with the really minty and  pricey ones going to collectors. If there is enough continuing interest in smithing I could see more people getting into making tools, especially anvils as they are the priciest hand tool we use. It wasn't the "49"ERS who got rich during the gold rush, it was the ones supplying them with the tools, and supplies they needed. 

I have seen the same thing happen with cars in the 80's when they were the go to investment. The prices dropped way down, but not to what they were before the hype. Yes, many who jump in now will bail out, but they may not want to dump their pricey investment for dirt cheap. 

[notownkid]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:47 PM, rockstar.esq said:

As "practical" pursuits go, blacksmithing is a pretty tough one to accommodate people looking for instant gratification

The only instant gratification one can generally get in blacksmithing is a sore thumb/finger and a blackened finger nail, they show up in an instant. It appears that a number of folks watch a couple forging shows on TV and few You Tubes and expect to make nice knifes in about a week.  I've made a few knives in my time, they at least look the part of a knife and most of them are stuck in the wall of a barn I've owned or used to cut hay bale strings to feed the cattle or the horses.  I usually don't bother taking them with me when I move.  When I need a good knife I buy it from someone who knows what they are doing. 

Is this a bubble?  Nobody knows, there are always some bubble forming, dog breeds, horse breeds, hot rods, you name it and 20 yrs later it's all over and then something else is blowing up.  At my age I've seen many of them, nothing stays the same.  for the foreseeable future the prices are not going down.  I'm just happy that for once I was ahead of the curve and got my equip. for a reasonable price if compared to today but at the time I thought it was a heck of a lot of money.  It's all relative.   

 

 

 

[Soupyjones]

The TV coverage had certainly made getting decent tools difficult where I live. I should know as forged in fire is the reason I cleaned the dust off of my renato muskovic anvil and found my old hammers. Finding tongs has become the fly in my ointment and everyone I ask says that anything related to blacksmithing is flying off the shelves. The upside of this is that there seems to be more demand for hand forged items in the area. I have no idea if anyone else around here intends to make a long term hobby of smithing, but I am now a lifer.

 

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, Soupyjones said:

The TV coverage had certainly made getting decent tools difficult where I live. I should know as forged in fire is the reason I cleaned the dust off of my renato muskovic anvil and found my old hammers. Finding tongs has become the fly in my ointment and everyone I ask says that anything related to blacksmithing is flying off the shelves. The upside of this is that there seems to be more demand for hand forged items in the area. I have no idea if anyone else around here intends to make a long term hobby of smithing, but I am now a lifer.

 

A lifer eh? Addict is what we call it and if you can move enough product to pay for it you're ahead of the vast majority of practicing blacksmiths.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Soupyjones]

13 minutes ago, Frosty said:

A lifer eh? Addict is what we call it and if you can move enough product to pay for it you're ahead of the vast majority of practicing blacksmiths.

Frosty The Lucky.

I remain optimistic that I can eventually make almost enough money to go broke doing this. It is just a pile of fun turning metal into fun things. Addict is probably the right word.

[Frosty]

Ah yes, a born addict, you wear the signs prominently. Addict isn't "probably" the right word, take if from a lifer.

You know, it's not impossible to make a small fortune blacksmithing, you just start with a large fortune.

That is one of the few blacksmith jokes I know of. That brings up a question I've had for some time now. By general reputation the town blacksmith was a big hearted guy quick with a smile slow to anger. If blacksmiths were generally such good natured guys I wonder why there aren't more blacksmith jokes.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Lots of blacksmith stories going back to "myths and legends" from all over the world.

Perhaps one would not like to annoy the fellow using the 8# hammer one handed and holding 2000 degF steel in the other?  I have often offered to hot shoe a heckler---"last pair of shoes you'll ever need---they wear like iron!"  "will it hurt?"   "No, I'll have my apprentice put his fingers in my ears...."

[ThomasPowers]

Giving this some thought I realized that blacksmithing was one of the few old trades I knew *any* jokes about.  You might say it's because of my interest in it; but I have been married almost 32 years to a spinster who's been teaching spinning over 40 years and I don't recall a single old spinning joke.  Perhaps it's not a paucity of Blacksmithing jokes but a plethora of them when compared to other crafts!

The two that show up regularly at demos are: "Doesn't take me long to look at a horseshoe" and "When I nod my head---Hit It!"  

Others???

[starbits]

10 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

 I have been married almost 32 years to a spinster

It is not a blacksmith joke, but it seems there is a joke there somewhere.

Starbits

[ThomasPowers]

proper use of the term; lots of jobs used to have gender based variations: brewer, brewster; actor, actress; poet, poetess; hammer, hamster...(people who smoke hams so the Monty Python retort about "Your Mother was a Hamster..." actually was not an insult but a statement of fact...)

Anyway the eldest unmarried lady in a household was often tasked with the spinning for the household and so "spinster" gradually took on another meaning.

[Frosty]

And making a small fortune out of a large one isn't a joke but a statement of fact. <sigh>

At least we can get a smile and chuckle from being steel wool couples eh?

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Frosty; I say Baaaaaaah to that! (it always amused the kids that I could talk to the animals and they would talk back to me...)

[Frosty]

1 minute ago, ThomasPowers said:

Frosty; I say Baaaaaaah to that! (it always amused the kids that I could talk to the animals and they would talk back to me...)

It surprises a lot of people that the animals you feed will respond to you instantly though sheep WILL bite the hand that feeds them but they're dumb as dumb gets.

Deb was letting the sheep and two pygmy goats graze and browse thinking they were contained by some wire fencing we'd picked up at . . .you got it, a yard sale. Well, seems sheep hit a fence and follow it till they come to the end or a gap then go feast on the other side, the goats just follow along. I'm out messing around in the shop and get a call from the neighbor down the hill. Seems our flock is mowing their grass and flowers. By time I got in view the flock was cruising down the utility right of way. The neighbors tried to catch them. <sigh>

So there I was trotting, (yeah fat OLD me trotting!) trying to catch up and telling the neighbor to stop chasing them. The finally stopped when the flock turned into the construction yard down the road from us. When I got to the gate there the girls were standing in the shade under a tilt deck trailer probably hoping those mean people who were chasing them wouldn't see them.

When I came in view Silver gave a happy baaah and the others chimed in. I called them and they all trotted right out and I herded them home. How hard is herding a flock of sheep? Walk behind them, to turn them left you hold up your right arm, ditto for the other way. Make a calm pace and they'll graze as they go and it's a casual stroll.

Folks were driving by gaping at us and several made a couple passes with cameras recording. I didn't see us on the news so we weren't even good filler footage. Thank goodness.

Herding goats around the arena at the fair was a good demo. We'd stand at one end and direct them at the far end with broad arm gestures. Funny how feeding critters makes you friends. NO that does NOT apply to bears, cougars, moose, etc. They get to expect food and take it badly (for you) if you don't feed them. Can't get tourists to believe it though. <sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[rockstar.esq]

I don't know if this is too trade specific but I've heard it said

Duct tape or baling wire for when moves and it shouldn't.

Oil for when it doesn't move but it should.

Anything else is an electrical problem.

[basher]

I would look at all this in another way, the fact that Tv shows are being made at all shows that blacksmithing (or in this specific case bladesmithing) is actually on the Radar...

minecraft.....game of thrones...all of these things do make a difference and the zeitgeist is strong with crafts and smithing.

 It does not really matter if ones own version of the craft is being shown I believe its all good.

[Frosty]

7 hours ago, basher said:

I would look at all this in another way, the fact that Tv shows are being made at all shows that blacksmithing (or in this specific case bladesmithing) is actually on the Radar...

minecraft.....game of thrones...all of these things do make a difference and the zeitgeist is strong with crafts and smithing.

 It does not really matter if ones own version of the craft is being shown I believe its all good.

Exactly, any publicity is good publicity. Who knows if this keeps up maybe our Grandkids will be able to take shop classes!

Frosty The Lucky.

[JPH]

Hello:

Ref tools..since I my name was taken in vain.. Tools do not make one a better craftsman..I have seen fantastic work that rivals any from anywhere that was produced with basically a rock as an anvil..a hole in the ground for a forge and one small hammer..Now poor tools will cause problems, no doubt but it is the one who's mind and skills are driving that tool that makes the difference. Granted good tools make some things easier..

Since my presses where brought up..I still weld by hand..I like to have a high degree of control and "feed back" when I weld so I know (more or less) what is going on during the weld. Yeah I use a couple of presses...but they are for the slow "grunt work" and are labour saving devices...nothing more..and if you do NOT know what you are doing with/around one..you can very easily FUBAR your work or YOU. There isn't anything in my studio that can not put the hurt on you or worse, if you do not respect it or know how to use it properly..and even then..they can get ornery and bite ya.

I have been doing this a couple years now and have seen alot of fads come and go from the "Bowie Knife" craze to the "Rambo" knife to the Tanto to the "stealth" knife to the Bowies again..to the tactical knife..back to Bowies to "liner lock folders" to "camp" knives and who knows what the next great thing will be??? I have seen this many times before and once the craze is over things should settle down a good bit...

Watching a TV show or reading a book isn't going to make anyone a blacksmith (or anything else)..It takes the person actually getting off their hiennie and doing it...95% of the folks that manage to do that will see that this sort of thing is a lot more involved than what is shown on the screen...

Anyway that's the way I see it..

 

JPH

 

[jumbojak]

On 4/6/2016 at 3:13 PM, Frosty said:

The neighbors tried to catch them. <sigh>

At least it wasn't passing motorists "helping" with by blaring their horns. I've been in that situation a few times and there's nothing like seeing ten cows you carefully drove down the road all by yourself split into two different groups heading into two different patches of woods. The driver then pulls up and apologizes ("I didn't think they'd do THAT!) but all you can think about is dragging him out of the car and doing something highly impolite.

I feel your pain Frosty... 

[JHCC]

On 4/4/2016 at 5:00 PM, JNewman said:

How many here have gone through the make a tool to make a tool to make a tool to actually make the project you are making. 

That would be me. In fact, I've forgotten what it is I was planning to make in the first place.

[SmoothBore]

On 4/4/2016 at 3:36 PM, ThomasPowers said:

2 hours ago, jumbojak said:

 ("I didn't think they'd do THAT!)

For many years, what's known as "technical writing", made up a portion of my day-to-day responsibilities.

In doing that, you quickly come to understand, that English-speaking people tend to include many superficial words and phrases in their vernacular.

The above quote is just such a sentence.

Eliminate the last three words, and the message remains unchanged. 

 

On 4/4/2016 at 3:36 PM, ThomasPowers said:

 

 

[Frosty]

12 hours ago, jumbojak said:

At least it wasn't passing motorists "helping" with by blaring their horns. I've been in that situation a few times and there's nothing like seeing ten cows you carefully drove down the road all by yourself split into two different groups heading into two different patches of woods. The driver then pulls up and apologizes ("I didn't think they'd do THAT!) but all you can think about is dragging him out of the car and doing something highly impolite.

I feel your pain Frosty... 

Ah the neighbors were trying to help they just didn't know how and I wouldn't have know the flock had gone walk about if they hadn't called. Nice folk and of the people driving by not one honked a horn though a couple waved and most were smiling. I half expected to see pics or videos on TV or something embarrassing.

I know what you mean though. We raised horses for a few years in S. California and it wasn't uncommon for someone driving past to honk when you were riding along a road. Fortunately out horses weren't too spooky and heck just got used to idjits with horns.

You can't even LET the fools who scatter a herd help round them back up, they'd just muck it up worse. It's the time a Border Collie or Australian Shepard is a godsend.

Frosty The Lucky.

[notownkid]

When young I worked in a Large Livery stables, 25-30 horses and a couple times a week there was a Blacksmith (Later to be know as a Farrier) in to do a few horses.  3-4 different blacksmiths as a rule.  Us kids were delegated to hold the horses for them.  They all had the same reply when asked if it hurt the horse when they were hot shoeing and the smoke was rolling around them,  " No it doesn't hurt or they wouldn't still be standing here" then they would offer the shoe to you," here take ahold and see."   We had all been pre-warned by the owner not to trust the blacksmiths.

If we got to day dreaming while holding the horse  "Oliver" would hit the floor next to your foot with a hammer to get your attention and say "next time I'll hit the big toe"  or "here let me hold the horse you put on the shoe, When I said I didn't know where to put the nails he said "Me neither" and then he said " if it doesn't leak its right and if it does my brother did it."  (his brother Henry was apprenticing with him and later went to live in Alaska and did shoeing) and if he had a new customer standing there he would walk back from his truck with the new shoes already to put saying "clips to the front and heels to the rear" over and over. 

He did shoeing on my horses for 35 yrs and lived up the road from me. Just a nice guy when he passed away I heard about it while in Sweden on business I managed to get flights changed and got home for his Funeral. Darn few people I would do that for.   His son is one of the Farriers in our area now. 

[jmccustomknives]

Recently I attended Batsons Blade Symposium and was surprised to find several people wonder in who saw an ad and wondered in just to see what was going on.  They said they watched those shows and became curious and wanted to see or try it in person.

[KYBOY]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 2:24 PM, Frosty said:

Exactly Smoothbore, it's common for folk to believe it's the tool not the operator that does the work. How many times have you heard, "If I had one of "Those" I could do "That." A person has to have a basic level of knowledge to realize how little they know and a hands on craft requires them to pick up the tools and give it a try before they get an idea of what's involved.

"If I had a press forge like JPH I could make pattern welded swords in a day too." Oh yeah, 40+ years experience doesn't count, it's the machinery. You have to know you don't know and if your only contact with a craft is video games the that's what you know.

If we want them to have a clue we have to show them. If they don't want to learn they won't and that's on their shoulders. By show I mean show them, telling them is not much different that the babble on social media  channels. When I take on someone I spend at least half an hour describing the tools, equipment and what their first project is and involves. I talk the safety mostly. Anyway, it's not till I've demoed their first project and they take the hammer they start to figure out it's not an easy craft to learn.

Frosty The Lucky.

That reminds me of all the times Ive heard "If I had a power hammer and a press I could make Axe's and all that stuff too" Never mind that there had been at least a couple hundred Axes come out of this place before there was ever a power hammer or press here..

 I just cant seem to make some folks understand that either one dosnt do a thing that you don't already know how to do, it just does it faster..