Kozzy Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Just wondering what people's opinions are regarding the growing TV coverage of smithing as an art/trade. Does it give the general public a better understanding if the skills and time involved? Increase desire and understanding of hand-made product and the efforts involved? Or does it so grossly distort time/skill that it actually hurts the trade? My take is that it will be the latter. They seem to make it look like you'll be whipping out flawless complex damascus in a month with productivity of several $ 1000 items a week. The other worry is with the "fad" issue--the faster something becomes a "fad", the harder it crashes when the fad fades. Any iron-bangers here seen a commercial uptick in demand or "craft understanding" that you feel is at least partially attributable to the TV coverage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Drive up the price of tools bought directly and providing a lot more sold pennies on the dollar after they find out that the tools won't make them a smith... I've run into a lot of folks who thought their video game made them a smith. Great fun to put tongs in their hands and all the PPE you can load them with and let them demonstrate to you their smithing skills. Some even make decent students once the realize the difference between fantasy and reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 The only way to take commercial advantage of a fad, is to jump on it while interest is expanding, and bail out when it turns the corner, and begins to deteriorate into commercialized, mass produced crap. Sadly, we might already be at that point. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I don't know about Blacksmithing on TV directly, but the popularity of stuff like Uber and airbnb is a fairly strong indicator that people are hurting financially. Watching the TV you'd think the economy is just amazing and that young people just like to share their cars and spare bedrooms for a nominal fee! The practical appeal of blacksmithing as a means to make stuff you can't afford, or repurpose stuff you've already got is bound to find traction when times are tight. I don't know that I see Blacksmithing as congenial to fads, however I recall a teacher mentioning that Thomas Jefferson liked to relax by the fire making nails. It's easy to get sanctimonious about hobbyists chasing a fad when it seems like you'll lose something precious. It used to be that most people hired contractors to fix up their homes. Now weekend warriors are taking on that work which in turn brought "big box" stores selling construction materials to the public. It used to be fairly difficult to find a store that stocked more than one or two brands of any particular tool. Trade-specific companies like Klein tools for electricians used to be seen only at the supply house counter. Now they're available at Home Depot. The internet has made hobby blacksmithing a reasonable pursuit for lots of people who couldn't otherwise find tools and equipment. If it became a fad, the prices for existing stuff might well rise. But that would give companies an opening to introduce new and more affordable options. As things are, blacksmithing tools are either swapped amongst ourselves at ever higher prices, or they're liquidated in estate sales. The prices for new tools are comparable to buying used from fellow blacksmiths. There's a psychological concept known as a "Drawbridge effect" where people who've attained their goals in life tend to want to limit the populations access to their lifestyle. Everything from country clubs to gated communities seek to metaphorically dig a moat around their happy place so they can keep the rabble out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 minute ago, rockstar.esq said: It's easy to get sanctimonious about hobbyists chasing a fad when it seems like you'll lose something precious. I wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I am NOT implying that people shouldn't smith or that it shouldn't be popular--just wondering how the additional TV coverage might affect things for people who do some light commercial smithing work: Whether people think the TV attention of these "reality" shows helps or hurts both customer perception and the off-hand profitability prospects of anything from superior knives to "trinkets". There's room for ALL who wish to bang steel. My personal concern is that the shows give the impression complex stuff is easier than it is in reality (which affects customer perceptions). Also that forged items will increase in popularity too quickly and that popularity will suddenly go the way of parachute pants and mullets--where it turns to disdain because of over-exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 You do realize that blacksmithing has had several revivals before now I have a book published for the hobbyist blacksmith right before World War 1, the Neo Gothic of the 1920's, the nationalistic revival of crafts during the 1930'snd of course the back to the land movement of the 1960's and early '70's Shoot we have fads within our craft---remember the swedish crosspeen? (treadle hammers, cristolph cross....) And let us not forget the "Tanto" craze in bladesmithing---I remember one publication calling a knife a "viking tanto" shudder shudder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 I can say that because of those programs I have received several orders. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's happened to. They have given people an appreciation for the art that have never thought about it before. And that's exactly what they told me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwistedCustoms Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: You do realize that blacksmithing has had several revivals before now I have a book published for the hobbyist blacksmith right before World War 1, the Neo Gothic of the 1920's, the nationalistic revival of crafts during the 1930'snd of course the back to the land movement of the 1960's and early '70's Shoot we have fads within our craft---remember the swedish crosspeen? (treadle hammers, cristolph cross....) And let us not forget the "Tanto" craze in bladesmithing---I remember one publication calling a knife a "viking tanto" shudder shudder... "Viking Tanto" You just made my day, thanks for that ;-) I take my wares to two and three events a month and lately everywhere I go folks ask me "have you seen that blacksmithing show?" Most folks seem to have some idea of the amount of editing that goes into making a TV program. Almost all my return customers have seen me work at the forge and only a few die-hards have the attention span to watch a blade being forged from start to finish, much less to stick around for grinding, hardening, tempering, polishing, sharpening. All in all I'm for anything that brings new interest. Some folks will look into it a little further and find out it's hot, dirty, and there is very little magic involved. Those folks move on to the next fad. Some folks look into it a little further and find out they have an aptitude and a passion for smithing. I guess whether it turns out to be a fad or a calling depends on the person touched by the spark! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 1 hour ago, rockstar.esq said: I recall a teacher mentioning that Thomas Jefferson liked to relax by the fire making nails. Not quite: Jefferson liked to relax by reading and playing the violin. However, a significant portion of his income came from the nail forges on the Monticello estate, where slave boys between the ages of 12 and 16 worked 10 hour days all year round, before being sold. Jefferson grew rich on the proceeds of both nails and trained nailmakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Reading the business case he wrote on opening his nailery is a great view on the costs and expected returns of nail smithing at the time. He opened it because he was in a financial bind and I think he spent a lot of his life property rich and cash poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notownkid Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I've watch the new show Handcrafted America in 4 shows they have had 2 blacksmith/blade Makers on. The 2nd season of Forged in Fire has caused an uptick in Blacksmithing and will increase the already over priced tools BUT like all Fads it will pass and a lot of these tools will be back on the market. We have all seen similar things happen to other hobbies in the past. I've been in on some of these and people thought all they had to do was buy the best equip. and read a book and presto they were a pro and could compete on their level, 1 season and they were gone onto something else. People today have to have instant gratification when it doesn't arrive they are gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 Kozy, I didn't mean to imply you were trying to drum people out of the hobby, no offense was intended. I was thinking about my apprenticeship. There were a lot of journeymen who were angry that home improvement stores were encouraging homeowners to take on their own electrical work. At the time it seemed like electricians would be losing a lot of much-needed work. In reality, the homeowners who really could wire a house weren't going to hire an electrician anyway, and the people trying to add one outlet on the cheap didn't have the funds to pay the going rate. I'm sure there's an electrician who has lost work because of home improvement stores, but I haven't met them. Today, it's absolutely amazing how often a commercial supply house will come up short on something that the home center's got on the shelf. They're truly a great asset for us. That experience taught me that a flood of newbies chasing a fad (if you can call it that) could actually be a boon to the trades involved. JHCC, I was going off the memory of what I thought a teacher said, thanks for the correction. One thing I'm noticing is how blacksmithing seems to be translated into bladesmithing / knife making. I have to admit that the amount of hokum and mysticism surrounding knife-making puts me off. I love knives, but I don't believe that they're the pinnacle or the end-point of blacksmithing. It's simply one thing that a blacksmith could make like a gate, a horseshoe, or an anchor. I've lost count of how many silly advertisement pictures I've seen of a flat-black blade that's been lovingly spritzed with tepid rose water resting on pebbles. "Blacktical Operator XXXTreeme Freedom Edition"! Speaking for myself, I am interested in building wood-working tools like Roy Underhill uses on the Woodwrights shop. I think there's a certain appeal to working with hand tools that won't deafen you or damage your lungs with dust. I also love how sharp, well-designed tools are the woodworking equivalent of "forged to finish". The hobbyist there faces the exact same problem as blacksmithing. To get started, you've got to take what you can get on the antique market, or you can buy new. Neither option is cheap, and it takes a long, long, time to amass a good collection if you're not wealthy. I figured I'd try to make the tools, which in turn lead me to blacksmithing. As "practical" pursuits go, blacksmithing is a pretty tough one to accommodate people looking for instant gratification. Speaking for myself, I'd love to see an extensive blacksmithing tools section at the local home center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I'm a complete newbie to blacksmithing, so I can't speak to the effects of the TV coverage on the craft and business aspects But I have found "Forged in Fire" interesting, and it causes me to research more details on the subject. Another benefit I see is that as I am building and getting all the tools together, my boys have become more interested in what I'm doing from watching "Forged in Fire" and comparing it with what I'm doing and discussing it with me. So that's a bonus. Maybe they will want to get out there and shape some metal themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 A couple thoughts from a long time hobbyist with occasional lapses: Any publicity is better than NO publicity. Drawbridge mentality is what makes guilds and fraternal orders possible. "We need to educate the public," is what the person who's bankruptcy auction I'm attending used to say. If one in a thousand folk who: stop by for a visit, buy something, order something, or want to learn seriously enough to show up for more than one lesson. Then that's more than before the TV show. Same for handing out business cards, I've handed out a few boxes since getting the current ones printed mostly to folk who show interest in learning. One or maybe two have attended a meeting and if one of those actually takes up the craft we're ahead. Besides, FIF hasn't been on the air long enough for a change in trends to show reliably, maybe if someone produces something spectacularly cool but not likely. It's not how these things affect a market, even fads take a little time. Heck, the Beetles Fad was well established before they hit Ed Sullivan and it came to public notice here. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkinracer Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 I've been in to gold panning long before all the stupid gold rush shows came out. Since they have every idiot wants to do it and generally don't follow the mining rules, now certain areas have been shut down that have long been open. Not to mention that all the claims around have been bought up and newbies are working them. Thank fully I don't get cable to follow the blacksmith TV stuff. I have found it harder to buy anything used that is "blacksmith" related, the exposure has driven the price and availability up for sure. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 2 hours ago, punkinracer said: I have found it harder to buy anything used that is "blacksmith" related, the exposure has driven the price and availability up for sure. Pat I think that's true, and it mystifies me. It's always been my belief, that the essence of blacksmithing lies in the ability to make your own tools and equipment. But you see a lot of the "consumer" mentality, right on this board. Where many of the newcomers are wondering where and how they can "buy" their way into blacksmithing. And often, they're not particularly receptive to the notion that the craft is something you have to learn, ... rather than something you can buy. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 Exactly Smoothbore, it's common for folk to believe it's the tool not the operator that does the work. How many times have you heard, "If I had one of "Those" I could do "That." A person has to have a basic level of knowledge to realize how little they know and a hands on craft requires them to pick up the tools and give it a try before they get an idea of what's involved. "If I had a press forge like JPH I could make pattern welded swords in a day too." Oh yeah, 40+ years experience doesn't count, it's the machinery. You have to know you don't know and if your only contact with a craft is video games the that's what you know. If we want them to have a clue we have to show them. If they don't want to learn they won't and that's on their shoulders. By show I mean show them, telling them is not much different that the babble on social media channels. When I take on someone I spend at least half an hour describing the tools, equipment and what their first project is and involves. I talk the safety mostly. Anyway, it's not till I've demoed their first project and they take the hammer they start to figure out it's not an easy craft to learn. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 I teach freely and I fully realize that most folks may never hit hot steel again after their first project; *but* if in the future their neighbors start talking about pitchforks and torches cause someone is setting up a forge in their backyard, they will be able to say; shoot that's blacksmithing, I've done that....and calm things down. And every once in a while you get a student that takes to smithing like tossing gasoline on a fire and it's a privilege and an honour to get them started in smithing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmutt Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 i look at it like the gun buying craze . there for a while you couldnt buy 22 ammo for first born child and a left arm so i sold every bit i had and stock piled the cash now that things are cooling off i walk in to farm king buy it cheap and put back in the safe once my shelf is full again spend the extra but i do that with every thing . when i worked satilite install new guys would hire on work a couple weeks then quit i would buy their tools penny on the dollar as spares or sell to the next batch of new guys for a profit . remember when OCC was on and every dink in every town started a bike shop now you can buy most of those bikes for under 5k less then they payed for the motor back in the day when this is over and fad dies there will lots of good barely used tools for sale cheap. i know i am just a hobbiest i dont even fel comfortable calling my self a smith i make things for myself and for freinds and family . i have never sold a single thing i ever made on my anvil i probably never will i do this to as my meditation cause i get to play with fire and wack stuff with a hammer instead of people plus i get a swell of pride when i make something cool looking that i can give to some one i care about casue i know they will never get another one like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel OF Posted March 25, 2016 Share Posted March 25, 2016 99% of blacksmith programme TV viewers aren't the sort of people who commission iron work. Having taken part in a blacksmithing TV programme (as part of a prime time crafts series hosted by a very popular & respected UK presenter) which leant towards the reality show aspect, I can tell you that none of my clients saw the show I took part in. Having studied Media Production at university and done units on TV viewing and domesticity, few people fully concentrate on the TV. Your tunnel vision focua on a show about blacksmithing won't be mirrored by the majority of people, many of whom will also be texting/on Facebook/playing with the dog/ironing/making dinner/helping kids with homework... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 then there is the person that sees the potential for making money from making knives. Lets face it there is big money in very well made knives. That is if you can sell them. Maybe the question will no longer be do you shoe horses. It will be can you make a knife. Tv will always influence people. But will they get up off the sofa and put in the time it takes to be good at something? from my experience very few will We are a rare few I am sure there will be % put out there about growth in chapters and the National organization. Time will tell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Ling Posted March 26, 2016 Share Posted March 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, Francis Trez Cole said: Maybe the question will no longer be do you shoe horses. It will be can you make a knife I hope! Littleblacksmith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockstar.esq Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 On 3/25/2016 at 8:30 PM, SmoothBore said: I think that's true, and it mystifies me. It's always been my belief, that the essence of blacksmithing lies in the ability to make your own tools and equipment. But you see a lot of the "consumer" mentality, right on this board. Where many of the newcomers are wondering where and how they can "buy" their way into blacksmithing. And often, they're not particularly receptive to the notion that the craft is something you have to learn, ... rather than something you can buy. . Smoothbore, I think the world agrees with you that skill isn't something you can simply buy. I think it's worth pointing out that we're all on a continuum from raw materials to finished products. The "consumer" mentality could just as easily mean that only posers use metal they didn't smelt, with coal they mined themselves. If blacksmithing was exclusively limited to the folks who did everything themselves, the art, technique, skills, and technology would never have advanced as much as it has. You've written that making your own tools is the very essence of blacksmithing. I think the skill required to make the tools (and everything else) is the essence of blacksmithing. Learning with a store-bought hammer, anvil, and tongs is still learning the skills of blacksmithing. The idea that the only path to skill is through aboriginal level blacksmithing is false since many modern masters started their learning on complete equipment. If a master smith decides to buy a hammer, it's definitely not because they're lacking skill, they're just making a decision to trade for a finished product. Looking down on "consumer mentalities" as a proxy for skill is an argument that doesn't hold up. We're online, in 2016, and we're still hearing arguments akin to "The fountain pen is the ruin of all future literary achievement". Somebody probably made that same argument about stone tablets. I find that whenever I go looking for idiots, they're constantly underfoot. However when I try to share what I know, I end up learning from my students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 Well even 2000 years ago the smith was generally not the smelter of the metal---Currency Bars are a frequent find in the early iron age. Though we do have evidence in the early medieval period of certain remote farms in Northern Europe where they both smelted and worked iron in the same location due to the remoteness and lack of trade. Much more like the Japanese where traditionally the smelter of tamahagane is not the sword smith who uses it even into modern times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted April 4, 2016 Share Posted April 4, 2016 2 hours ago, rockstar.esq said: I think the skill required to make the tools (and everything else) is the essence of blacksmithing. The idea that the only path to skill is through aboriginal level blacksmithing is false since many modern masters started their learning on complete equipment. If a master smith decides to buy a hammer, it's definitely not because they're lacking skill, they're just making a decision to trade for a finished product. This cannot be stressed enough and it's something I often try to get across when people encourage new folks to forge their own tongs. The notion that a smith is supposed to make their own tools is just silly and can really hurt a newbie when they get demotivated by their inability to do complex movements to a suitable level. Tongs, for example, make a big difference in how comfortable and safe the forging is. Bad tongs hurt the hand and let the metal slip around. Why encourage that out of some false sense of propriety? Buy as many tongs as you can, buy them brand new from one of the many supply houses, and use them to practice building your skills on easier projects. Samuel Yellin was a master of the trade by anyone's estimation..... yet he didn't make all of his own tools. To the OP, I don't think that all the recent exposure will mean much over the long-term. Some people will be turned on by the idea, but they will quickly look elsewhere once they see how much labor is involved. Of the 1% of the viewers of that want to get into it, less than 1% will actually try to cobble a smithy together and even fewer will stick with it for any significant length of time. I'd like to think that there will be a big uptick in people wanting to buy my Iron Goodness, but that doesn't seem reasonable. It's possible, sure, but you're looking at a small percentage of the viewers being shared between all the active smiths in the country. Even if there's an uptick in sales, the amount per smith isn't likely to be much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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