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Demos and other smiths


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During my demonstrations, I receive the most irritation and/or interruptions from other smiths.  I love it when audience members get involved, some have great stories and memories about past family members, some are amazed to see things made without a computer.  Everyday and every crowd is different.  But it's always the smiths who horne in and steal the oxygen.  It seems they have need to show the audience how much they know, or promote their club, or just want to name drop.

What gives?

(I realize this is probably an incendiary question, but I'm hoping to compare notes and experiences with other performers.)

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One reason, I think it have something to do with the fact that someone else is demonstrating instead of them. Perhaps they feel threatened by that. Blacksmithing is very unique skill set these days because it's so rare to see. I think a lot of smiths get a charge out of being the only one who can forge a leaf. I myself have come across that when I went to a county fair, there was an old guy demonstrating and he was making some fire pokers and selling them for $10 each! I am not going to lie, I was kind of jealous of the attention he was getting, especially since he was phoning it in with his fire pokers. 10% of me wanted to steal his spotlight and let him know he wasn't the only smith in town. Fortunately the mature side of me won out and I simply congratulated him on his work. He flashed me proud smile and I walked away.

Post edited by moderator

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Where I come from, we call "Politically Correct" speech, ... .

 

And the only reason I mention it, is because it's directly related to the original post.

Others with similar experiences and frame of reference will always find a lot more to comment about, ... because they share your interest and passion.

This is a "universal truth", ... no matter what the subject.

If this "heckling" really bothers you, ... then perhaps it's you that has the "problem" ?

You can't take it "personal".

----------------------------------------

In my working career, from time-to-time it was necessary to conduct "training" seminars, ( demonstrations ) ... and that's not a skill that is often addressed, ... in Engineering Schools.  :huh:

I struggled with it a bit, ... until a School Teacher I was dating, made me realize, that it's actually a "performance".

Not that much different, than doing "Stand-Up Comedy".  ;)

Essentially, it's up to you to "work" the audience, ... and NOT let them "work" you.

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99% of people who come to watch demos are interested in what you do, ask sensible questions, have great stories to tell and maybe appreciate learning something. You always get the odd one who knows (or thinks they know) more than you do and lets everyone know it. The one who likes to give a running commentary on what you're doing in a loud voice for the benefit of all. These PITAs are few are far between though and I just ignore them.

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SmoothBore: It's not so much political correctness as it is civil language. I don't think I ever got old enough my Mother wouldn't have taken the wooden spoon to me for bad language after the first warning.

I agree with the perception of spectators. People who know what's going on and how it's done are going to be the harshest critics. Doesn't matter what's going on experts will hold the demonstrator, speaker, expert, etc. to a higher standard. It's not like Szilard and Fermi stood around and oohed and awed when Einstein said something, they poked harder than anybody.

Of course there are the annoying "experts" who's only real experience is watching their great uncle or hearing family stories. Seems the less people actually know about a subject the more they think they know. For the occasionally really annoying spectator I reserve calling them n their opinion. I offer them the hammer. I'm usually rewarded with a look of horror by the "expert" and chuckles from the rest of the audience when they decline the offer.

Demonstrating is theater. You're not there to really teach folk, you're there to entertain them and do so honestly. I never do my best work at demos, all my demo projects are simplified so start to finish takes under 10 minutes, 5 is better and I can continue a patter, make eye contact, answer questions, tell amusing stories and make the kids laugh and giggle. One of our members, a much better smith than I was on my best pre accident day does S hooks as a demo, incredibly simple versions that take about 3 minutes and he gives them away still warm from the forge.

Having the right demo projects involves them being simple and fast enough folk with no experience or knowledge can follow start to finish and understand what's happening. And simple enough you can crank them out start to finish while reveling in the distractions.

Of course that's just my opinion I could be wrong.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Gentle reminder, PG language is expected. We get bery warners brothers here but the host insists that your 6 year old daughter and your grandmother feel equaly at home here.

My apologizes to the language police. Gentle reminder, these are just words on a page which represent noises that come out of our mouths. We have had strong language since the beginning of time and yet humanity continues on.

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How about this. Think before you write, think like an educated articulate gentleman. Everybody slips and types something they shouldn't but grownups don't make excuses let alone lecture adults. And that was a truly lame excuse.

Frosty The Lucky.

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"SmoothBore: It's not so much political correctness as it is civil language. I don't think I ever got old enough my Mother wouldn't have taken the wooden spoon to me for bad language after the first warning."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I too am the "beneficiary" of a strict, conservative upbringing.

However, in my family, children were expected to think and respond intelligently, ... and express themselves honestly, in an adult fashion.

Sometimes, that includes calling a "Spade", a "Spade".

-----------------------------------------------------------

In the other matter:

"Seems the less people actually know about a subject the more they think they know."

I believe the Dunning-Kruger Effect was recently discussed in another forum.

.

Edited by SmoothBore
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"SmoothBore: It's not so much political correctness as it is civil language. I don't think I ever got old enough my Mother wouldn't have taken the wooden spoon to me for bad language after the first warning."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I too am the "beneficiary" of a strict, conservative upbringing.

However, in my family, children were expected to think and respond intelligently, ... and express themselves honestly, in an adult fashion.

Sometimes, that includes calling a "Spade", a "Spade".

-----------------------------------------------------------

In the other matter:

"Seems the less people actually know about a subject the more they think they know."

I believe the Dunning-Kruger Effect was recently discussed in another forum.

.

Dunning-Kruger Effect! Yes, thank you, it was discussed in a thread here a while ago but I couldn't remember which one or the name. It's been driving me nuts since and I've been dropping the description with shameless abandon hoping someone would post it again!! Heck I even asked outright a couple times. Well, I think I asked.

My folks weren't too strict on most things but we were expected to think things through and work for our spending money. I remember the look Mother gave me the ONE time I called a spade a pointed shovel. I don't know if she was disappointed or about to laugh AT me. It was a look I never wanted to see again, better if she was mad than disappointed.

I can only remember getting one spanking I didn't deserve. (that time) We really had to push to get a spanking but if Mother asked if she had to get the wooden spoon it was last call. She never threatened but if she opened the drawer it was a done deal. I think two swats was a pretty severe spanking I think I got 3 one time but I was really asking for it. Dad never hit us except for a cuff for doing something really stupid dangerous in the shop. It was the shock of the act not pain that embedded the lesson in permanent memory.

We were lucky in selecting the parents we did.

Frosty The Lucky.

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My apologizes to the language police. Gentle reminder, these are just words on a page which represent noises that come out of our mouths. We have had strong language since the beginning of time and yet humanity continues on.

There are NO LANGUAGE POLICE, and you are welcome to say anything that fits within the site guidelines. 4 letter words do not fit.

We have all demographics that visit IForgeIron. Your spouse, girlfriend, daughter or grand daughter are welcome to the site and should feel comfortable when they visit.

The site guide lines have been in place since day one. We have two examples that were brought to my attention recently. One from a young man from a home schooled background that found the site at the age of 13. His parents read the site and approved giving him unrestricted access. He now is a very accomplished blacksmith. The other is an older gentleman and blacksmith who due to failing eyesight has his young grand daughter read the site to him so he can keep up with the craft. I would like to follow the young grand daughter as she will have a fantastic working knowledge of the craft at the knee of her grandfather.

The site guide lines insure that anyone coming to the site can feel it is a comfortable place to visit and learn. We ask that you help us keep it that way.

 

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RE Dunning-Kruger Effect

Bertrand Russel pointed out that people usually fight for ideas that they cannot really defend by good arguments. Nobody fighs for that 2+2=4 but there have been wars over which race should have supremacy. Thus if someone is defending his point of view very vehemently it means that he is probably wrong (and proably feels that wihin).

Göte

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Took more than two seconds to compose this, so of course I got FORBIDDEN:

 

You guys all missed (maybe 'cause you're GUYS and not women?!  ;)) that it is just very human to be attracted to like-minded people.  At least around here blacksmiths aren't exactly a dime a dozen, and running into one somewhere I feel a very strong need to engage that person in some conversation - if there happens to be a crowd around, oh well.   I say this having only been out in public once where I unexpectedly ran across a demo, and he just happened to be one of my instructors.  He actually purposely demonstrated something I'd not seen before, for my benefit as well as the small crowd around.  When customers arrived I bowed out and went away.  But it's only human nature to want to engage a person whose interests are the same as yours.  Maybe the MAN side of that is feeling a need to compete, maybe women don't feel that as strongly, I don't know.  

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As a teenager and early adult I was lucky to know a fellow who had an interesting way of thinking.

He owned a few lumber companies, a wooden box company, had logging crews working in the woods with teams of horses and grew huge amounts of cranberries.

He raised horses which is where I knew him.

He said he needed to be able to have breakfast with his logging crews, attend business meetings during the morning, attend rotary at noon, work at running his business with all sorts of people and attending a political event in the city during the evening and in each location he had to be able to communicate to others on their level using their types of speech  and be comfortable.  Today far too many  people want to lower the rest of us to their level of speech or education by curses and slurs and saying it is normal.  It may be in use everywhere but it doesn't make it right. 

As to the people at demos it isn't just blacksmith groups it's everywhere.  I was giving a talk on a very large livery stable that had been in our town and I had worked in as a young person and constantly this "lady" would interrupt saying she didn't think this was correct or that couldn't be true. She wasn't born until 15 yrs after it had burned and hadn't set foot in our town until 5 yrs ago.  Finally one of the girls who had worked there as well and was at the talk told the woman it was in fact all correct.  She stormed out to applause!  

Edited by notownkid
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  Maybe the MAN side of that is feeling a need to compete, maybe women don't feel that as strongly, I don't know.  

It's been my observation, that Women are, ... by several levels of magnitude, ... MORE competitive than Men.

No, ... they don't always attempt to compete with Men, ... but their interactions with other Women, are endlessly competitive.

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I am guilty of a few of these infractions! (not so much the language stuff)

When I'm travelling and see a smith doing a demo, I always introduce myself and ask a few questions on things that may be done different than I have learned. I will also explain to my son who's usually with me, what he's doing and why. If others are nearby and hear me, I've never thought it rude, or that somehow I was stealing a spotlight.
Spanky is right (in her other thread) there aren't many smiths, and to find someone with common intrests is exciting. Where are they from? Do they have any groups i've not heard of? Any hammer-ins? Any tools to buy tor trade?
If you're working in the public eye, you need to realize the public will engage you. If that bothers you, perhaps you could silently demo and let another engage the crowd.

I've never done a demo, but I think I would like the additional info, so that i can either correct the information or enjoy the time to get the demo done right while another helps with the jibber-jabber.

I'd just be happy the public is still learning!

Edited by JimsShip
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It's been my observation, that Women are, ... by several levels of magnitude, ... MORE competitive than Men.

No, ... they don't always attempt to compete with Men, ... but their interactions with other Women, are endlessly competitive.

LOL, sometimes that is true I suppose.  Maybe it's just me or maybe I'm getting OLD.  When I was younger I was more competitive, as I've gotten older I just don't bother.  Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, from Heschel:  "When I was young I admired clever people, now that I am old I admire kind people."

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This "s#|+ vs Shineola" debate is proving to be a perfect illustration of the derailment to which I was referring.

As a performer, I get paid to keep the show fun.  Audience participation is something I encourage and enjoy.  Braggarts and blowhards have their version of fun, so I have to play into that as well.  I won't let my vanity toss off somone's poorly considered exuberance as "jealousy".  I guess if I were giving a lecture on the proper use of denigrating colloquialisms, I should expect rejoining examples of such throughout.  Some folks just can't help themselves.

I've been a smith for 20 years and a performer for 2.  I don't give demos to blacksmiths, they are just sometimes present.   Local smiths in good spirits who enjoy the interaction with everyone and aren't just puffing their shirts usually get a job offer.  For the most part, my audience has no indication that blacksmiths make anything other than swords and horseshoes or have something to do with MineCraft.  The first smith I met was grossly egotistical and worked very hard during that initial (and only) conversation to discourage my interest in blacksmithing.  I try not to become that man.

The circumstances of my situation allow me to introduce blacksmithing to 20,000 people a year.  The mosquito bites don't bother me, their itch fades every time I hear, "Mommy, I wanna be a Blacksmith".  Just recently, I figured out that my favoirote thing to make is curiosity and crafting a trinket is, just like my hammer, mearly a tool in my employ.

Thank you for the replies and the conversation.

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Thank you for sharing our art and skills with the masses.

As to the "language derailment. It works best if the members at large police them selves and rimind other members they are guests on this site. I, to am a gest I dont want to see the owner shut the doors to all of us. If you found that distracting and iritating, appoligies, I was hoping to keep JP form getting one of "those" emailes and tosed in time out. 

But again I thank you for your service to the craft. 

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Well when I participate in a multismith demo I try not to correct them while they are talking to the crowd; lots of urban legends in smithing and bladesmithing and even blacksmiths don't always know the historical aspects...  I've also worked out some ways to correct people in the crowd  misinforming folks.  "Edge packing was historically believed to xyz but modern research has shown..."  "Quenching was common when using very low carbon wrought iron or mild steel but with modern A36 I generally just normalize..."    And I love hecklers; I'll offer to hot shoe them for *free*!  Last pair of shoes they will ever need as they wear like iron!"  If someone asks me if it will hurt I say "shoot no I'll wear ear plugs"....or have my apprentice stick his fingers in my ears...Or I can talk about the "folded steel" comment in Pirates of the Caribbean I  and mention that the cooks knife was probably made from shear steel and so was folded steel too...

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"Where do you get your coal?"  *if* they don't ask that they probably are not really a smith...

In this area, it's more common to get it from the locals working in the coal industry.  Also conversation I try to avoid because our local stuff is great for emphysema and/or steaming across the Atlantic, not so much Blacksmithing.

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