School&Steel Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 (edited) Hey guys I'm new to the forums, but I was wondering if I could thicken 1/4" x 1" flat stock by forging vertically and keeping it true. Would it thicken up to 1/2"x 1/2" flat stock? Thanks guys, happy forging! Edited September 18, 2015 by School&Steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 1/4 x what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Faster, easier, CHEAPER to buy stock the proper size! For me I'd find it easier to forge weld if I needed to do it. You will lose a lot of metal to scaling and have great difficulty keeping cold shuts from forming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyO Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 forging 1/4 x 1 to 1/2 square isn't too difficult... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 2:1 is the ratio I was told to work between. Anything over that and you risk folds and cold shuts as Thomas states.1/4" x 1/2" no problem but 1/4" x 1" will take forever to tease back and forward to avoid the folds. You will lose a lot of cross sectional area in the process.With a power hammer you can hit it hard enough to get the centre section to swell and so you can improve on 2:1 on a good day.Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Good Morning,Or you could start with 1/2" and draw it down to 1/4".Start playing with the Modeling Clay or Play-Doh, you will see what the above people are talking about.Perspective is not Linear. Figure out what works with Modeling Clay/Plasticene and you will answer your own questions. You can make it out of your soft medium and then skunsh it together and see how much of the parent material you will need to make it.Just a thought,Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Welcome aboard new guy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.Yes, you CAN upset 1/4"x1" into 1/2"x1/2" but it's a PITA. Unless it's necessary for the piece it's just an exercise in how to or how far can you go. I can think of design elements where it might be pretty cool, say a section of a strap or brace, etc. that looks like it was pinched between someone's fingers.If you want to take a lash at it then go for it. You probably just aren't going to do it again for real. On the other hand markets are full of STRANGE people.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
School&Steel Posted September 18, 2015 Author Share Posted September 18, 2015 Alright, thanks all this was a real big help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Yes, you CAN upset 1/4"x1" into 1/2"x1/2" but it's a PITA. In the words of Chris Rock, "Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that it's too be done! You can drive a car with your feet, but that doesn't make it a good ---ing idea!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 If you do choose to do it, heavy hammer, maybe even a striker, otherwise it'll want to fishmouth. On the other hand, too heavy or power hammer, and there's a tendency to buckle, although maybe not so bad on 1/4 x 1. Pain in the tuckus.I've upset parts of wide ones mucking about with leaf spring SSO (sword shape objects) and angle iron leaf shaped spearheads. (makes a lovely ridge down the middle from the extra material in the corner.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Note that 1" x 1/4" does not allow for any scale losses or lengthening along the long axis of the piece going into 1/2 x 1/2". There is just enough steel to form 1/2 x 1/2". Think of 1" x 1/4" as being 4 pieces of 1/4" sq stock sitting side by side; you can re stack them as 2 up and two across to get 1/2 x 1/2" sq stock but there is NO extra to deal with losing material during the working of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 "Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that it's too be done! Exactly.In an Industrial setting, it's commonly known as "Best Practices", ... to avoid "re-inventing the wheel".Use every advantage you can get. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 It would be extremely difficult to get 1/4 x 1 to make 1/2 square. As Thomas noted, there is no accounting for scale loss. Additionally, you will absolutly get buckling when working this section size on edge because the aspect ratio is 4:1. In industrial practice the maximum aspect ratio that can be easily worked on edge or upset is 3:1. This phenomena is independant of hammer or press size. So, you will get buckling of this cross section if you work it on edge. You can flatten that out if you work it on edge a little, then flatten a little than back up on edge etc. However, when you flatten out the buckle, you will get some lengthening. It cannot be avoided. Therefore, even if you had no loss to scale, you still wouldn't end up with a true 1/2" square. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Note that 1" x 1/4" does not allow for any scale losses or lengthening along the long axis of the piece going into 1/2 x 1/2". There is just enough steel to form 1/2 x 1/2". Think of 1" x 1/4" as being 4 pieces of 1/4" sq stock sitting side by side; you can re stack them as 2 up and two across to get 1/2 x 1/2" sq stock but there is NO extra to deal with losing material during the working of it!Yeah but that's easy enough to correct, just upset it lengthwise to make up for scale loss.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Bevel the edges, take a real good heat, touch the edge to the anvil for a few seconds and then flip the stock and start forging. This will help to start the upset and push the edges into the middle with out fishmouth. Tho hamer control being what it is, you will fing yourself correcting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Frosty you are an evil evil man! If we ever meet up I'll buy you a beer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Just a thought, but rather than upset, why not just fold and weld? You might be a little off, but a lot closer, and less trouble.P.S. I wish you'd been around to tell me about beveling to cut down on fishmouth when I first tried something like this, Charles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 xxxx it Jerry, stop feeding the "forbiden" deamons! Thank Frosty and Tomas, it bit me in the posterier a few times. They where trying to explane to a new guy how to draw tapers, he didnt get it but I did. One of those du moments. Some times I have had to forge wide toe web, raised heal shoes, and as I carry 1x1/4" for sliders it is more practical to forge the heals down to 3/4x5/16. Then fold the heals under and set them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Frosty- you are still limited to a 3:1 aspect ratio when you upset. If your piece is longer than 3/4" then it will buckle when you stand it on end to gain back what you lost due to buckling when you worked the edges. You could upset in very short sections, but why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 K.I.S.S. Purchase the proper size material to draw down to your finished size. Just because you "CAN", doesn't mean that you made a "Smart" choice. Price of cost saving material + fuel to upset to finished size + Time and aggrivation to accomplish the feat = PAITA and cost more than purchasing other material.just my $0.02Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 However, should you elect to do 'IT' despite advice to the contrary!If and when you 'pull it off' the feeling is 'priceless' have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo7 Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 I, being stubbourn, have done the could do but dont waste your time thing, against some advice (Thanks rt), after many nights, many many heats sorry to say I made a heartbreaking decision to give up on it, Scale is a nasty theif was one thing I learnt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Frosty you are an evil evil man! If we ever meet up I'll buy you a beer!Thank you sir, I try. I like dark beers and creme stouts though a nice ale is good. We'll take turns on the check though.Frosty The Lucky. Frosty- you are still limited to a 3:1 aspect ratio when you upset. If your piece is longer than 3/4" then it will buckle when you stand it on end to gain back what you lost due to buckling when you worked the edges. You could upset in very short sections, but why? Patrick: I see you have the good taste to not read enough of my posts to know I'm a smart Alec so you probably just didn't realize how far in my cheek my tongue was.However, there is a good reason to try upsetting such a piece of stock and no, you don't have to lose much of anything to scale. IF you flux it to prevent oxygen contact. The only good reason, other than a patron is paying your rate, to learn to do this kind of silly process is to learn how. As a learning exercise it's a fine thing to do, education costs, one way or another we have to invest in education.And, yes I've actually tried this silly kind of upset and pulled it off IIRC 1/4"x3/4" or similar. It was far and a way more work than it was worth. Yes I lost so much to scale that by time it was square it was something like 5/16". After keeping flux on it edge chilling it so it'd upset in the center and liberally coating my apron with flux spatter I proved to myself I'd prefer to draw 1" sq. down than upset very much more than absolutely necessary.The way to keep buckling from screwing the show up royally is to correct it the second it starts to occur.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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