jdawgnc Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 So I just got my shiny new ABANA membership for christmas and I'm looking to buy a few new toys to get my workshop a bit more efficient. I'm a decent welder, and have taken a few smithing classes so I know enough to know that good tools are very important to making a good finished product. I've got a nice little two burner gas forge, a great old mousehole anvil, a solid post vice, couple hammers, and a couple pairs of tongs. All the basics, plus a more than decent welding set up. As I shop around I notice that actual new blacksmithing tools are crazy expensive, which brings me to my question... What tools are worth buying and what should be cooked up at home? My main question now is about the guillotine, specifically, anyone use a smithin magician and is it worth it? I'd love to expand this to other tools though, like hardies, why is something that seems so simply made $60? I feel like I can heat treat and weld a cut off together pretty well. Sure it may need to be sharpened or re-treated more often but that's a lot of money saved... Making something as complex as a guillotine though, I can see where tight tolerances would come in very handy with making good clean cuts and fullers. So basically, what do you think of the "magician" and what other tools would you absolutely buy before you build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JME1149 Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 There are lots of ideas for a variety of guillotine tools out there. Anywhere from a simple homemade scissor type action to the commercial ones and everything in between. For me it all comes down to what machining/fabricating abilities and materials do you have available vs. how quickly you want to be using the tool. I looked at the Smithin Magician and liked the price and the option of being able to buy the kit or a completed unit. The one thing I didn't like with it was that you are limited to the size hole of the machine. I prefer the open side frame like you see in the G2 (from yesteryear forge). It just seems to me that there are a lot more possibilities with that style (which is why I bought myself one for my birthday). It was a little more $$ than the Magician, but I was really impressed by the quality and workmanship. The interchangeability of the dies with commonly available stock is another plus. If I had a milling machine and ready access to inexpensive plate stock, I would have made my own, but I don't so I looked for the best unit I could buy for the cash I wanted to part with. I know this probably doesn't help, but it all boils down to your own preferences. Good luck with the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 Most of that depends on two factors, hoby vs profetinal and your skill level. If your a pro the time to make tools may be beter spent at the forge on paying gigs, as well as the all importaint tax right off (uncle sam whants you to spread the wealth) now at some point skill becomes a factor, forging tongs and other tools (or reforging them) improves your skills for other projects, and as your skills progress you get faster at forging tools (and selling them) And the last thing is ther is les pride in a bought tool, the tool maker cant tailer it to your style and needs, and I hate re working tools. Some things you have to make your self, as you cant buy a new chisel worth a dang (to soft, and not profiled right) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 New Jersey Blacksmith Assoc. tooled up and made our version of a smithing magician several years ago. We used cold rolled 1/2" x 2" for the dies. Not heat treated. Everyone got plain flat ends. These were easily shaped to what one wanted, and we had extra pieces available so one could have different dies. I was not hard to build the frames, just a lot of cutting and welding. Again, factor your time/cost as to whether you buy one or build from scratch. Whatever you decide, try to make/get one that easy to change dies for different jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 A pro smith can build as good as he can buy in most cases. The differences is his time. If it takes 4 hours to build that is an investment of half a days wages. You put your dollar amount here ____ . A hobby smith has all the time to build things, but may lack the skill. If he buys, he opens the box and starts working. If he can justify the cost and the tool will pay for itself, then buying may be the way to go. I chose to build my fullering tool from drawings and instructions of a known design that worked. Took me 2 weeks to destroy the tool as it was too light for what I was asking it to do. Second tool that was built, took only one half the time the first tool required to build. The second tool was made much heavier, and changes were made to make it more user friendly. That was several years ago and it is now a go to tool when I need to do that type of work. I would like to build number 3 with tighter tolerances and a couple of other changes, but number two still works and has done all that I have ask it to do. One suggestion is to drill holes in your dies and wire matching pairs together. Do not ask how I know this (grin). I have an ammo box full of dies and they tend to all be singles for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted December 30, 2014 Share Posted December 30, 2014 why is something that seems so simply made $60? I feel like I can heat treat and weld a cut off together pretty well. Sure it may need to be sharpened or re-treated more often but that's a lot of money saved Don't begrudge folks what they charge for a piece. That "simply made" hot cut they're asking $60 for took a solid 30 minutes to forge to shape, and the price includes the cost labor, material and electricity to light up the shop. If you value your time, you can't fault someone else for valuing their time. You can weld up something that will cut hot metal, but you're not getting anything close to the same quality and you'll still have burned up $60 in time and materials. Labor, electricity, consumables, the hours spent learning how to weld, wear and tear on your tooling, all of this has to be factored in to the price of the goods being offered for sale. And then you have to worry about how long the piece will sit on a shelf before someone buys it. I had a guy do the same thing to me just the other day. He thought my flint striker was too pricey and he could make a similar one by himself. I don't know if he ever did try to make a striker like mine, but I do know that he didn't have the tools or experience to make a close replica of what I made. The time and materials he would have burned up could have been better spent on something else, and he would have ended up with a product that suited his needs. But, he didn't want to pay me $40 because that was just too much money for something that looked so 'simply made'. And that striker still hasn't found a new home. All that time and energy is stuck in the striker, collecting dust on a shelf, until a new home is found. Yesteryear Forge makes a great guillotine and I highly recommend you add that to the list of "must have" tools in the shop. Like a vise, a good guillotine tool allows you to do things you would have a hard time doing otherwise. Definitely on the top of my list of tools used regularly. And, yes, Yesteryear's pricing is spot on. Even if you try to cobble something up on your own, you'll have several hours worth of labor, materials and consumables to account for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 The R & D cost of making the first working model is always much higher than you think it ought to be, it gets (hopefully) faster and cheaper with each consecutive iteration. Part of what you are paying for is that proven design. That is why art costs so much. Each one is a one-off, if it is real art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Thanks for the great replies, I'll definitely be looking into yesteryears version. As I'm sure most of you can relate I often feel the need to make my own tools but realize my skill level is lacking sometimes. Especially here in the smithing arena! That's why I ask you experts and value the great response newbies asking the same questions over and over get. Vaughn I definitely understand your point. I have several similar items I wish I had could sell and can understand the dilemma, that's why I asked this question. Some things are worth the cost, and I realize my own fabrication ability, planned usage, and access to materials make a HUGE difference here. After looking at plans, I'm sure I could make a perfectly serviceable magician, but at my skill level I think I'll use a little of that Christmas money and splurge on a pro model. I can always get froggy and build a "better" version down the road. Any other must haves you can think of in the couple hundred dollar range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Good topic. One school of thought is that a good way to learn smith's skills is to make tools. I took special tool making classes to augment what I had learned during my apprenticeship. Tongs are a great tool to learn and it is also very handy to be able to produce a new set of tongs at will. Novice blacksmiths can also modify other tools. Hammers can be changed into other types of hammers, linemans pliers make nice scrolling tongs. Old punches and chisels are readily recycled. Files, leaf springs, allen wrenches car drive parts etc, make good sources of tool steel. The Making of Tools or the Complete Modern Blacksmith is essentially devoted to teaching a beginning blacksmith how to make every tool any artist (sculptor) could use, not just metal shaping but also wood and stone. It has been a great benefit to myself as a business man to be able to build my own tools. Some tools are not worth building; I bought a lathe, a milling machine, drill presses and belt sanders used for less than they would have cost to build. Other things are far cheaper to build. I built a powerhammer and saved thousands and my machine performs better than most factory models. I built a hossfeld bender and I make all my own dies for it and have saved many, many thousands (a complete hossfeld set up is well over 20KI built a powered roll former and saved a couple thousand. I make hardy tools and top tools and hammer heads as I need them and the money saved is a tradeoff but having what I need when I need is invaluable. Don't have a slitting chisel, a punch or a drift? Make one. Frankly you are limiting yourself severely if you don't learn how to make tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Its a question of the chicken or the egg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 the answer is the rooster.First you have look at it this way you are starting you journey as a blacksmith. Second Blacksmith make there own tools. I have seen 100 different versions saw one made from square tube. Most tools they all work and they all have there limitations. I have 3 different guillotine tools. One for necking down pipe, one for making round stock a certain size, and one like the yesteryear forge design but set up for the size stock I had to make my dies. Just do it you will learn something and I am sure down the line you will make a bigger one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 With all the tools you've listed, the only thing I would really consider semi-vital is a torch. If you're running a propane forge, consider getting an oxy/propane torch set-up. There are a lot of times when being able to spot-heat a part makes life a soooooo much easier, and there's no reason to go with oxy/acetylene when you've already got propane on site. Propane streamlines the supply process and works just as well as acetylene. And get a gas-saver gizmo so you're not wasting fuel while you do heat the part. Seriously, with a cutting torch you open whole new worlds of possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 I second the vote for a torch. Very handy for heating a small area, or a pinpoint area. And when you need to do fine adjustments, it is the best way to heat. I use it for my flowers and shaping the stems. Most controllable and eliminates burning the stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdawgnc Posted December 31, 2014 Author Share Posted December 31, 2014 Oh yeah, I already have a O/A torch and cutter set up and agree 100% on it's utility. They have already come in incredibly handy on several occasions, especially since my forge is too small to do larger bends and such. Really the only thing I'm missing from a total fabrication set up is a plasma cutter and CNC machine (now I have a power hammer to add to my growing wish list of BIG tools. :D I made my first two sets of tongs, and agree that I get a lot more satisfaction out of them than I would out of a store bought variety, even if they are a little out of square. I have a steady supply of scrap coil springs out of humvees and large 4WD trucks, so that's where all of my punches and such will come from. If I can get a few straight leaf springs my magician may get homemade after all. It's all about what you have available and your skill set, and making stuff always improves the skills. I guess I was just sticker shocked at some of the newer stuff, especially since a good bit of my gear is over 100 years old, built way better, and cost far less... but I luckily live in NC where there is still a lot of that stuff hiding in old barns just waiting to be found by someone willing to scrub off the rust. That and I have a few mechanic buddies who love my work and keep me supplied with good scrap. Again, I appreciate the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 other than coil spring take some of that money and buy a length of 3/4" round s-7 and h-13. you will never go back to coil spring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Get, or build the tools as the work requires it. No sense spending time , or money ,on tools that you THOUGHT you needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted December 31, 2014 Share Posted December 31, 2014 Straight leaf spring is a matter of heat and judicious use of a hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Charles springs are ok but it takes time, money and fuel to straighten them. And all springs are designed to fail at some point. I have spent time straightening out a spring just to find it has a flaw right down the center the long way. I don't know what you charge for your shop time. Even if you got the spring for free A 6" length of 3/4" s-7 cost $4.50. Heat it shape it and done. I have priced out what it cost me to make a punch from a spring. Cutting it. heating straightening and shaping it then heat treating it. It dose have its place. But it is not the most economical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 OP- since you just got your ABANA membership try and order the back issue of the Hammer's Blow that has detailed plans for making one, came out around 10 years ago. If you have a drill press and OA set you can make one no problem. When I'm slow in my shop I make small production runs of guillotine tools and sell them on ebay, give them to Iron in the Hat fundraisers and the local smithing club, etc. I've made a lot of them and still use my prototype (going on 10 years now). Some thoughts on die size and material- Since you are unlikely to be working bigger than 1.25" stock by hand, 1.5" wide dies are big enough. Anything bigger is just wasted material that your hammer will have to overcome the inertia of before the blow can act on the work piece. As for material, a lot of guillotine dies are fairly beefy, like butchers and fullers. If you are working hot material mild steel works fine as long as you dress the tool occasionally and is hands down the most economical material choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 4, 2015 Share Posted January 4, 2015 Frances, yes sir I agree, but for a hobiest especialy one just starting out the learning proses has its own value. Forging often warps a peice of stock you want strait and true. As for the fact that it takes a bit of experiance (and self control) to forge s-7, h-13 or other tool steals. Its real easy to get impariant and pull it out of the fire and try and forg it to cold, or if you do get it hot enugh (and dont just make a sparkler out of it) you have to school your self to stop forging before it gets to cool. All beginer mistakes that are easy to make. And if you make them you still end up with a broken tool, time, fuel and material costs. I admit all the time and effort put into a hand or anvil tool makes good, new tool steel cheap (like the difference between pine and oak furniture) but the learning curve has its own value. All that said, I have, and do make or buy tools of S-7 and H-13 but i dont shut down the shop and drive 60 miles to get a peice everytime I need a tool either, spring (leif or coil) axles, torsian bars, sucker rods, railspikes, rail cut offs and rebar (just to name a few) has all been presed into service when needed. And some have lasted years, some failed before the lob was done. But it beat the 3 hours, and 5 gallons of fuel to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Happy New Year, There is no ONE answer. I make a lot of my tools, I also teach tool making, I also support the person/business who makes and markets special tools. If we only built our own tools and didn't support the tool makers, the tool makers would quit building nice tools that have a lot of thought put into them. If we didn't support the tool maker, what makes you think that someone else would want to buy a tool that we made!! Pay it forward!! Learn to make quality tools, don't be afraid of purchasing or trading tools with someone else. There are so many different thoughts, who is to say that our thought is correct. When you make your own tools, I teach people to give it the Braille Test. If you close your eyes and handle the tool with your bare hands, are there any sharp edges or corners?. If there are sharp edges, redo it until there isn't!!! Be proud to make and use NICE tools. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted January 6, 2015 Share Posted January 6, 2015 If I need a tool for a job, I usually go and buy the best I can find. I have a huge tool inventory now, and not one tool has ever failed to pay off in use, time savings, and making the job easier(or doable). Make what you want, but save some time and buy some top quality tools. They will never be a waste of $$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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