At what point are you considered a Blacksmith/Bladesmith?

[jmccustomknives]

For Christmas my wife gave me a belt buckle with a working 'smith that says blacksmith across the top.  Got me to thinking.  I don't consider myself a blacksmith, more so a bladesmith (that might be pushing it).  So, what say you?  When can one say, "I'm a blacksmith/bladesmith"?

[crossdawg]

I'd say when you feel like you are. But that is very subjective. Depends on how you feel about yourself. My 2c

[L Smith]

On the good days when it all works together YES---Those other days I am just a slug abusing iron.

[notownkid]

50 yrs. ago to become a Firefighter one had to learn to "Put the Wet Stuff on the Red Stuff"  At the end of 30 yrs. that was still one of the most important thing to know.

 

Congress to my knowledge hasn't had the time to pass certification requirements on Blacksmiths so maybe "you is when you say you is"  and "know enough to hit the hot red thing with big hammer"

[Steve Sells]

After having gone through the training of Electrician, EMT and for Jujitsu, I was an apprentice in trainging until my instructors said I was ready, and I passed their tests.  Until then I was just a student,  now I am still a student, but also a teacher.

 

I did the same as a smiith.  When I started I was an apprentice, until my teachers and peers started calling me other.  Which happened one day at Bills shop and a mutual long time smith friend of ours told Bill to "stop milking me for free labor,  he is a jourmeyman and you need to start paying him for doing your work now"  lol

 

I feel that self given titles never mean much, its when our teachers and peers acknowledge our works,  then we have earned it, and it starts to have  meaning.

[DSW]

I did the same as a smiith.  When I started I was an apprentice, until my teachers and peers started calling me other.  Which happened one day at Bills shop and a mutual long time smith friend of ours told Bill to "stop milking me for free labor,  he is a jourmeyman and you need to start paying him for doing your work now"  lol

 

 

My take would be in the traditional sense you were a "smith" when you reached Journeyman status and were able to work on your own.

[quint]

Then I pose another question to go with this. How about for us poor guys that end up being self taught (well with the help of various online assistance like these forums and acquaintances online and such).

 

Now for bladesmithing they have th JS and MS that you can get. However there are a ton of guys out there who dont have either and still make a most amazing blade.  

[VaughnT]

Without standardization of some kind, you can't say your a blacksmith.  Any justification you come up with could always be trumped by someone demanding just a bit more.... and you can't argue about it because there's no agreed upon standard to say who is right.

 

That makes it very difficult, but I think it's very insulting to the masters and apprentices of the past and present for someone to simply beat on iron and call themselves a blacksmith.  I can't count the number of youtube videos I've watched where a guy calling himself a blacksmith simply bangs on some hot iron, turning out a horribly disfigured end product.  

 

With blade-smithing, you at least have the chance to test for the various stamps.  You might not agree with their methodology, but going through the motions means that your ability meets certain criteria by a recognized body of experts.

 

Even if you don't go through the ABS testing to officially get a JS or MS stamp, you can still follow their published guidelines and produce work that could be reasonably expected to pass their tests.  If you can do that, it's fair to say that you're a qualified blade-smith of that level.

 

As far as blacksmithing goes, I look to Mark Aspery as the standard by which I judge my ability and that of others.  If you can't match his published skill level, you're not a master smith.  

 

I could have chosen Sam Yellin, but I like the idea of having the chance to watch the person work and being able to read his how-to manuals.  In my opinion, his ability to produce equal to Yellin and others, as well as his ability to teach the craft, makes him far more valuable as a standard than simply the works left behind by others.  And, as I stated at the beginning, that's my opinion and I can't force anyone else to accept it.

[njanvilman]

I taught metalworking an woodworking for 37 years.  I was continually learning as I went.  I dabble in blacksmithing, but am still learning.  Same with woodworking.  I do blacksmithing, but by no stretch consider myself a blacksmith.  I do a lot of wood turning, but am not a master woodturner.  I do sell a bit of my work, but still give most of it away.  But I am not a professional.  I enjoy the work for the results, yet bow down to the masters out there who do amazing work.

[Harri]

That makes it very difficult, but I think it's very insulting to the masters and apprentices of the past and present for someone to simply beat on iron and call themselves a blacksmith.  I can't count the number of youtube videos I've watched where a guy calling himself a blacksmith simply bangs on some hot iron, turning out a horribly disfigured end product.  

 

This is usually so in pottery to. (as a potter i feel free to say so)

[Marksnagel]

And the can of worms is opened and spilled over.

 

This question has gone round and round before.

 

I would like to call myself a blacksmith but alas I can not. I have had no formal training nor shall I ever. All I have learned is from trial and error, videos, talking with blacksmiths and here at IFI. When someone with less experience than I asks a question, I may give my advice based on personal experience but mostly it is my opinion.

 

I do however refer to myself as a hobby blacksmith. I am content with that. I do not imply or assume that I have any knowledge above hobby level. I put a lot of time in at my forge and sell what I make but nothing compared to a professional blacksmith.

 

There are those that make a living at blacksmithing and have spent years working and learning under other actual blacksmiths and I will not detract form their time, efforts and talent.

 

Mark <><

[Daniel.85]

I usually just say Im a blacksmith or I do some blacksmithing, just because its easier than explaining that nuances of the title every time. Ive been at it for 2 years and Im barely a metal smasher compared to some of the real blacksmiths out there.

[notownkid]

But I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last Night!

 

You want 12 opinions ask 8 blacksmiths the same question, as stated elsewhere on IFI,

 

Take your car or truck to an  independent repair shop most of the mechanics there have No Certifications but their employer will charge you $100 + an hour for their flat rate in this part of the country.  Dealers are barely better.  ASE testing they advertise is at best a joke, book testing no practical at all.     

[anvil]

oops, guys. you should reread tho original post.

he didn't ask whether or how to catagorize your skill level or ckmparison with others.

the question was

" When can one say, "I'm a blacksmith/
bladesmith"?"

lol once I cleaned my coffee spill and got the best belly laugh in a long time under control,

the answer has to be what notownkid said

"you is when you
say you is" and "know enough to hit the
hot red thing with big hammer"

 

 

the following Merged by mistake,  from Arftist

My first real job was as an apprentice to a blacksmith 30 years ago.
I had met with him before I started highschool and took all the classes he recomended.
(welding, metal shop, wood shop, drafting, mechanical drawing, mechanics)
I then studied engineering graphics in college.
While in college I worked as a draftsman for an Architect.
I then studied welding at night school for two additional years,
I then began decades of study at a blacksmith school under an acknowledged Master Blacksmith.
Concurently I returned to college to study Comuter Assisted Machining (CAM)
I further apprenticed in associated metal working trades; Machine Shop, Fabrication, Weld shops, Sheet metal, Plumber, Autobody
I am presently employed at the shop of a well known Blacksmith as a welder (what I consider another aprenticeship, though in reality I am a journeyman).

All the while I ran my own business metalworking. For my business I built many of my own metalworking machines;
a powered roll former, a universal (hossfeld style) bender an upsetter (1/2" square capacity) a powerhammer (75#),
a muller, a twister, and countless hand tools.

Since I work blacksmithing I am a blacksmith. If it were my hobby, I would be a hobbyist blacksmith.

In reality, there are only four treatments a blacksmith can make to iron; Drawing, upsetting, bending and twisting.
When one has mastered these four treatments, one may consider one's self a blacksmith.

No person with any humility however would prenouce one's self a Master Blacksmith. That title must be endowed by one's peers.

I have only considered myself a blacksmith for about the last ten years or so. It took me 20 years to learn enough that I felt I had earned that title.

[anvil]

arftist, I pretty much agree with you but believe we are a bit more complex than your 4 operations.

I add two more that must be mastered. punching holes and splitting. altho, I may get a huge argument here as punching could technically be considered a type of split. :) so I will concéd the point now.

dang, gotta go. spilt my coffee again. ;)

happy new year one and all

 

name typo corrected here also

[Crazy Ivan]

I would also add forge welding to that list. Controlling the fire and watching your heat is very important.

-Crazy Ivan

[SmoothBore]

As is my habit, I tend to look at things from a Historical perspective.

 

Since nobody "trained" the "First" Blacksmith, obviously, training isn't a proper criteria, ... he was self taugh, and his skills evolved over a long period.

 

Today, we seem to have an obsession with titles, ... and I think this is caused by a lack of self-confidence.

 

The only true way to gain self-confidence, is by successfully completing a task.

 

But the real test, is not how confident you are in your skills, ... for some folks standards are very different from others.

 

 

I'd say you're a Blacksmith, when other people say you are .....

 

 

 

 

.

[arftist]

I kinda like ARTFIST and considering my history here, it is fitting, but I call myself Arftist. LOL

 

 

Ooops, sorry, corrected

[anvil]

lol sorry about that.

Ivan, primary functionsapplied to iron are pretty limited, and not all you need to know.

actually, forge welding at its simplist is simply drawing out at a higher temp than usual.

[Francis Trez Cole]

when other call you one and you make money at it.

Then there is whether you are any good at it. ABANA is trying to set a standard with the grill project. Is that all the skills you will need, no it is not. but it is a start to having a standard.

As for those who feel they are not good enough or only self trained. you can achieve any goal you set. 25 years ago when I started with no internet and limited resources that's the way I had to learn. I would watch other smiths do a task and then go home and do it over and over again until I got it. reading all the books I could get my hands on and try each element. 2 years ago I got to take my first formal class. It was worth the wait I was ready to run with the project and all the work I had done over the years all payed off. Its not what school you go to it is what you retain.

[notownkid]

Certification by some organization isn't the end answer, all one has to do is look at Doctors, Teachers, Lawyers, Police, on and on.  Some are very good, many are so so and a growing number are just plain BAD, but they all met the Standards, they all say they are the best.  Next to impossible to get rid of the so so and BAD ones, and Steve I bet you would say the same for some Electricians. 

 

Are all Master Smiths equal in their work, I don't know but I'll bet they are not!

[VaughnT]

NTKid, without standardization, you can't call yourself anything.  All those professions you cite have standards, and being good or bad after you've achieved that standard is irrelevant.  That's a matter for continued evaluation of the skillset displayed, and in all of the professions you name, not one of them has a fixed end product.

 

I firmly agree with the ABANA/Aspery grill project.  Simply put, if you can't build that grill, you're not a master smith.  It might hurt some egos, but I'd go so far as to say that anyone that can't build that grill isn't even an apprentice smith.  It's not that you have to, but that you have the ability to.

 

The biggest problem that this nation faces, and probably all nations, is that there is a lack of accountability.  You want to call yourself a smith, fine.  Put up or shut up, I say. Welders get certified.  Nobody thinks they can simply jump in a car and be transformed into a NASCAR racer.  Knifemakers have the ABS criteria to meet.  Why should it be any different for blacksmiths?

 

It's true that peer review and approval is important.  However, the ABS system and the ABANA grill project are nothing more than an extension of the peer-review process.  If you want to be acknowledged as an expert in your field, there must be some impartial third-party standard that everyone agrees on.

[arcc]

I call myself a blacksmith now, but when I reach my goal of forging every tool I'll ever need(I intend to do this year) I'll call myself successful.

[anvil]

here's a quote from Mark, has this changed?

" Hello to all,
The ABANA national Curriculum is an
education based (not qualification or
assessment based) program. It is 9
levels, starting at the beginning and
finishing (at least for now) at the grille
project."

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[thingmaker3]

Has anyone bothered to look up the definition of "definition?"