Is it even worth working in the winter?

[sing_j_]

So for some of us winter has or just is setting in now. Does anybody smith in below freezing temperatures or below zero degrees? What do you do to combat the cold, not for yourself one just adds layers, for the metal and not losing the heat even faster. I think I read on hear or somewhere at least that a guy had a litte blow torch and just ran it across the section of his anvil where he was going to work so he wouldn't lose his heat as soon as it hit the anvil.

[jmccustomknives]

I'm sitting here playing on the computer 'cause it's to dang cold.  It needs to be 45 before I venture out to the shop.  I couldn't survive up there.  I'd much rather forge at 95 than 35.

[ThomasPowers]

There was a recent long thread on preheating anvils; reading it would save an hour or two of typing.

 

Back when I lived in Ohio I would block the wind from my anvil and put down a sheet of plywood to stand on and preheat the anvil, hammers and tongs and did not have that much of a problem---and anvil that's 80 degreesF in 40 degree weather is not much different than one at 70 in 70 degreeF weather.  Layers were important as I would shed clothing as I worked up some heat. I might start with a sweater and a jacket but end up in my jeans and flannel shirt.

 

 

A gas forge makes a good salamander for an unheated shed but REMEMBER the CO *will* get you if you don't VENTILATE!

[sing_j_]

Thomas I found that thread and if I would have even known about it I probably wouldnt have even made this thread haha. I don't have to worry about a gas forge, even though I have thought about making a little soup can one just for the heck of it, I run an open coal forge. the forge sits outside, so the shop doesnt fill with that wonderful smoke, and the anvil sits inside. And jmc its -7 right now it was about -28 last night and I can't remember where in Montana someone said it was -35 at 8:30 a.m. (today) and with wind chill it felt like -54.

[notownkid]

I would think the answer to your question of forging in the cold depends on what you call cold, exactly what your building is like, what your age and experience is with the cold. Myself I until 10 yrs. ago had to be out in the weather regardless of the temps. Farm animals need care 7/365, Firefighting 24/7/365, snow removal when it snows. Now I don't have to so I don't. I have nothing that needs forging in cold weather,(if I do I'll call you) if it's my house that is on fire I'll do something, if it's yours you are on your own, I hire my snow plowed and all the animals live with someone else now. Two more years and I will read about the cold weather in the paper or e-mails from friends who don 't have the sense to be with me in Ft Meyers.

Those of us who have "Been Around The Block" a lot of times have a different view of the trip, and my feet, hands and ears being so cold I couldn't feel them for a half hour smartened me up after 60+ years.
35 or less I have all sorts of work to do in the house ( I keep another workshop in the basement) An old Amish gentleman told me once "To Late Smart, Too Long Dead".

Good luck with the cold

[Ted T]

To work or not to work in adverse weather conditions?

 

Working in extreme HOT or COLD conditions may equally produce dangerous or adverse results on the person and the forging process.

 

When a person is young their bodies are more able process the effects of heat or extreme cold properly (good circulation).

So I would conclude that a person’s age and health condition must be considered to a large degree when making a decision whether to work in extreme environmental conditions or not.

 

An example; is when I was a young man, I had to weld on large pieces of construction equipment during the winter and summer months.

Tempters would range from 104 degrees F in the summer, down to below zero in the winter time.

In the winter months while working outside on snow removal equipment (trucks, plows, and graders) it would reach sub zero tempters.

We had no choice but to do it if we wanted a pay check.  

 

And then I had just the opposite experience in the summer months. Tempters would reach above 100 degrees.  

In the summer or winter conditions I was required to wear full leathers, hat,

helmet and gloves when welding.

Although, in the summertime conditions were compounded by having to

weld in the direct sun with the resulting radiant heat produced by the machinery while standing on top, along the side, and underneath the sun heated equipment.

 

While I was young, this was accepted as all in a normal days work because I had to make a living.

 

BUT; now that I am somewhat older, I could not even consider doing what I used to do. For one thing, I could not do it, and the other thing is that I don’t have to do it now.

 

What I have just said leads me to believe that “Necessity” is a driving force of weather it is worth subjecting yourself to adverse conditions or not.

 

I did, and now I get shots in my neck, spine, shoulders, knees and ankles for arthritis.

I have found there is a price to pay in the long run for everything we do.

 

My suggestion is to subject yourself to adverse conditions; but only if you have too.

Don’t be in a hurry, save money, gain some foundational experience and then build yourself a shop.

A decent shop will solve all of the issues that we could bring up about the effects of the cold on you in the long term;

and also on your equipment.

 

Here is a photo of my “outside shop” when I was young. 

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If I had to do it over again, I would have let wisdom be my guide and saved money to build me a safe place to work in.

 

Please use wisdom and not be in such a hurry that it may not be worth it in the lone run!

 

[Laertius]

I actually prefer the cold for forging (10c to -10c is best)  -- -as was stated in the anvil preheat thread I heat my anvil with a propane blower 'MR Heater' for a bout an hour before I set up the charcoal forge.  

 

But keeping in mind what Ted T said,  I only do this if I am in the mood and my body feels up to it.  Like him,  I used to work in -40c on heavy equipment,  THAT was for a paycheck.  I only forge in the cold if I feel the urge to squish some metal.  I now sit at a desk and find my forge time to be both a physical activity and mentally theraputic as it is  so different from my day job I am able to relax and shift gears.

 

If this was my bread and butter, I'd be setting up a proper shop with insulation and indoor forge / chimney / ventilation etc!

 

Here are some pros and cons.....and tips 

 

Pros:  Layers make it possible to forge away in the cold, without sweating -- and if you do sweat, it freezes or evaporates quickly!

The metal cools down quicker AFTER you are done forging, and want to do some finnish work.  In my area, it gets dark by 5pm in the winter, and with the coal forge outside, I prefer the dark to see the fire ( MY forging triangle is at the man door to my shop -- forge is right at the door outside, anvil just in the door, and vise a couple steps away). 

 

CONS:  YOu have to refill the slack tub / empty it all the time, otherwise it will freeze.  A  5 gallon pail will freeze solid overnight in minus 10 or worse weather. so get a animal feed water heater or empty /refill after each session.  Another item to consider is the anvil preheat -- as discussed at length in another thread.  YOu may also consider preheating your stock / tongs and hammers if you, like me prefer to smith bare hander -- a few minutes on the warm anvil or on the forge table will do.  

 

Lastly -- the main point to remember here, as stated in the anvil pre-heat thread is that for the steel the difference of 40c is not that big a deal,  it is the human ( and other  water based things)  in the equation that really care about the 40c difference!

 

Jon

 

and btw -- it is -21c without the windchill today~!

[ThomasPowers]

Now when the weather was really nasty and I was suffering forge withdrawl; I made a 1 fire brick forge that I could safely use in my basement for hours at a time.  Did the 40 nails for my mastermyre chest, lots of hot forged silver penannulars, etc.

[Fe-Wood]

Th other day I was forging away for about an hour and then realized I had a coat of ice on my hammer from breaking a hole in the ice in the slack tub the night before. I keep heat tape and a bonnet on my power hammer so it doesn't cool off to much between uses during the day. Its taking me about an hour to get everything warm enough to actually forge with any speed.... I'll be happy when the temps are in the 30's... -11f tonight...

[EtownAndrew]

I spent most of the day today forging outside on my back patio. There was snow covering the grass and the temp was below 30 F. The main thing about winter that holds me back is that there is less daylight. I stuck a 200 watt light bulb over my work area but I am still a little less inclined to start forging if it is dark out.

[macbruce]

Once my shop gets to where I can't see my breath (40+)I'm good to go, I'll take that over 95+ any ol time........... B)

[billyO]

I'd wait to hear what Frosty has to say......

[arcc]

I wanted to go out and forge tonight , but didn't. The temp is a little chilly by Alabama standards in the lower 40's but I've worked much colder. My problem is due to living in a hole is air moisture and not thinking ahead and gather enough twigs in advance before a few inches of rain. Getting the will to start the fire on cold nights is the hard part.

Christmas present for myself this year is an propane torch. Oh yea.

[sing_j_]

Dang wasn't expecting this thread to blow up haha some of the posts got me thinking this isn't my bread and butter, part of me wants it to be but I'm only 20 so I may not be thinking everything through, my beard and butter is a drill hand for the family business. Yet this art, trade, skill, craft, whatever you call it I admire it, and I'm gonna freeze my butt off this winter cause we all are going to find out how much I really admire it cause frankly I've just got some smithing fever. I greatly appreciate all the story's and comments on here. I haven't been able to smith do to a shortage of coal and yet I know my knowledge has gone up thanks to all of you taking time to answer my questions. I look forward to seeing what other people have to say on here.

[ripleycopa]

I operate at a community forge every Saturday morning, year round in Southeastern Missouri, so the temp. range goes from below freezing to over 100 degrees F. with lots of humidity most of the year.  The shop is a wind break at best; a tin roofed board & batten without the battens. This is a hobby, not an occupation so comfort of the smith is preferred.  We have more problems with heat and humidity than cold, because you can only take off so many layers before you are down to skin, and heat exhaustion is not uncommon and can be dangerous.  When its bad we just quit forging early and b.s. until closing.  In the winter I can heartily recommend two products:  quilted Carhart coveralls and Toasty Toes chemical foot warmers.  The foot warmers make forging at 35 to 50 degrees enjoyable again and allows you to stand some sub-freezing work if we have both coal forges going and the doors closed.  We sometime wish for gas forges in the winter, but they would be even worse than coal in the heat of the summer around here, so coal is all we do. The slack tub freezes an  inch or two deep most winters but seldom freezes solid.  The way this winter is going, however, I think we may have to invest in a stock tank warmer.

[Black Frog]

Temps falling throughout the day today to single digits in the afternoon, -12F later tonight.

I'll be out there after work.  :)

[VaughnT]

Working in the winter time is about the only time I get to do it.  I can't stand the heat of a southern summer, and certainly would die if I tried standing around a burning forge!

 

One of the biggest problems I see with smiths on youtube (maybe not the best source for study...) is the distance between the forge and anvil.  I can't count the number of times I see a guy take three or more steps to get between the two, and that's simply unacceptable.  You state that your anvil is just inside the shop, but how far is that from the forge?  Eight feet?  Ten?  Every step you take is costing you heat in the metal, and this is critical when you're working small stock.  Ideally, the anvil should be a step away so that all you do is turn and start pounding.

[Black Frog]

This was after work today on the way to -12F below zero....

 

[Wroughton]

Greetings Sing-J,

 

 

You guys had it worse than we did in the western end of the state. It probably won't be the last cold blast of the season. I only burned up 5 cords of wood in 4 days keeping a "ring of survival" around the barrel stove. The stove is a heavy round drum 4' x 6' so it slurps wood like the Cookie Monster eats cookies. I had to torch my power hammer with the weed burner for 15 minutes before it would even think about running right. It sits about 6 feet from the stove right now. I had opened up the ports to get the oil flowing and after it warmed up it had oil GUSHING out of every orifice. 

 

You're fairly close (In Montana terms) to a number of professional smiths. The Bozeman/Big Timber area is lousy with them. I'm sure there are a couple in your area but I'm drawing a blank for a Lewistown NRBA member. I'm sure you can scare up a smith or two.

 

Join the NRBA, see the world!

 

Not really, that's the Navy, but the NRBA will open your eyes and make sure that sickness you're carrying festers into a full blown obsession. 

 

 

Vaughn, 

 

You'd cringe, laugh and wail at how far I run at the moment from forge to PH. Because of the cold my power hammer is now sitting over a wood floor so It can be closer to the stove. I don't trust an errant fire brick or hot cut off to not catch the floor on fire so I keep the forge over concrete.

I was embarrassed the other day to find myself running from the forge to the hammer while watching yellow turn to orange and start to head to red before I even struck a blow. An exercise in how not to do it, but I managed.

[yves]

I work in a silo. 

 

In the summer, it is quite comfortable, a little humid maybe but never too hot except for a couple of days and then I just do it.

 

In the winter, like today (-22 Cº = -7.6 Fº) for instance, after the first cup of coffee, I go and set an ironing iron on the anvil, close the door of the side draft and heat the wood stove.

 

When I get to work, I open the door of the side draft (the accumulated heat from the stove heats the chimney), light the forge and open the door of the smithy to replace the air going out through the 14 inch side draft. It remains very comfortable next to the forge but quite cold next to the door (obviously).

 

Since the only running water I have is me running with a bucket from the house when I go to work, winter makes it more difficult but not enough that I would complain.

 

Reading about the difficulties a lot of you have with winter and summer (I might add) I feel privileged, winter not realy being a problem for me. And being on the older side of human life expectancy, when I think it's too cold, I stay in the house and read all that I have missed on IFI ...

 

[sing_j_]

Vaughn its two steps maybe three and just for you I'll say theres a chance its 4 steps :)  I can't get a good coal supply so I'm gonna be making a waste oil forge soon.

 

Wroughton, I'm happy to see another fellow montanan on here. I'll leave the power hammer to you, one less peice of equipement I've got to worry about haha. Theres a Blacksmith out by Giltedge in between Grass Range and Lewistown, I've heard he's starting to get out of the trade due to health complications and his body not being able to do it anymore. then theres kind of a bladesmith in lewistown. then theres a bladesmith out by roy and thats just a rumor too. and what do you mean by bozeman/big timber area being lousy? I dont know if theres any NRBA in or around lewistown are you apart of the NRBA?

 

Yves, I agree with catching up on IFI thats what I've been doing with all this BEAUTIFUL! weather I've had in my neck of the woods, shes warming up and that just means I go back to my job wait till it snows and then back to blacksmithing, its a terrible cycle :)

[Wroughton]

Lousy, as in, at times it feels like there's a blacksmith behind every shop door.

Not even close but it can feel like it.

Call it....a high working smith density?

And, that was 10 years ago. Things have changed a bit. 

 

Last time I checked I was a member in good standing with the NRBA. 

It's been a while since I've attended a conference and our local

hammer-ins have dwindled.

Ben Lund is around Fort Benton, Sore Elbow Forge (Tom Holcombe) in north eastern Bozo.

Deron Johnson in Big Timber.

 

Here's a link to the NRBA page http://www.hallowellco.com/nrba.htm 

 

[Glenn]

When I get to work, I open the door of the side draft (the accumulated heat from the stove heats the chimney), light the forge and open the door of the smithy to replace the air going out through the 14 inch side draft. It remains very comfortable next to the forge but quite cold next to the door (obviously).

You may want to consider putting a air pipe from the outside to the fan intake for the forge. This will keep warm room air in the room and still provide plenty of air for the fire.

 

Move the anvil to where that wooden stump is behind you in the photo. Or move it so the anvil is one step from the forge. This placement will lower your daily mileage of walking to and from the forge to the anvil. It will keep more heat in the metal as it no longer gets cooled on the long trip to the anvil.

[sing_j_]

I gotcha now Wroughton, I can see bozo having a still somewhat high concentration or still feel like it. I don't know why thats just bozeman for you. I've heard of the Sore Elbow Forge in bozo, and havn't heard of Ben Lund over by Fort Benton same with Deron Johnson at Big Timber. I know theres the Bar Mill Iron Forge in Big Timber and I've looked at their portfolio of the items and projects that group has done and its awesome! Heres a link to their website if anybody wants to look at their portfolio http://barmillironforge.com/?pageID=361338 The NRBA needs to get more younger people to get interested. I've started to find out with my generation when you tell my generation that you do blacksmithing they think it sounds just like a giant snorefest. I feel like if younger people, my generation, had more of an oppurtunity to at least try out blacksmithing they'd realize it's more then just hitting red hot iron in between an anvil and a hammer, and find a real enjoyment out of this art.

[yves]

You may want to consider putting a air pipe from the outside to the fan intake for the forge. This will keep warm room air in the room and still provide plenty of air for the fire.

That would be quite easy raising a pipe along the wall through the ceiling and in the open air of the silo. Thanks. It's on the doable list.

 

As for my anvil, it is presently less than a step away from the forge. I turn on my right foot when I take the hot iron from the forge to work it. The pic's perspective does not jive with reality. The anvil is as close to the forge as the stump with the swage block.