beth Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 the fact that you dont have a torch set is exactly why your learning will be more complete jake - bravo on the whole thing - and whatever you say about execution geting it all right etc etc- thats a work in progress - a lifetimes work - the nature and the look of the thing as a whole and as an objective observer is still beautifiul and full of what youve put into it , this should not be ignored or underestimated - cos beyond all the learning the technique and the getting it right - a piece still has to have heart, and thats the bit you'll never be struggling with! REALLY cool :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Hi Jake, I think you are creating more problems for yourself than you need to, I hate forge welding and will do my best to avoid it wherever possible, you are getting involved too near to the situation, stand back and look and think what would the (a) best way to do the job. Take these last two elements, why use three pieces of metal for each element when one will do the job.? I appreciate you are recycling old chain links, but instead of cutting the link in half I would use one link for each element, draw the centre section to your developed size and in the appropriate position, flip the short end back over at the short intersection/transition point and line them parallel, then faggot weld this bent joint and draw it to a taper for the inner bit of the feature, think about which way you did this as you have to match the other side to get the flow. You can then forge this end to the shape you want and get that smooth flow you are looking for, then put your tenon end on it. Now part bend the ring, Bend the long end around at the other side of the element and in line and then faggot weld and taper finish as before. Bring the ring around and line the ends up, match the next one to this, then adjust to fit as required. I see no evidence of marking out for any of these pieces, Use a deep centre punch mark so you know where to work from as opposed to guessing, This will give you datums and reference points and make your work appear more balanced when completed. I hope this makes sense, and I look forward to the end product which will be most valuable. Why do I say that, well, yo will be able to look at it and see where and how you could make improvements, do it right, and you may not know why it looks right, it just will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Jake - It looks good! - by being confronted by all your stumbling blocks, one sure gets to feel the whole scope of what went into delicate / intricate forgings many years ago.... like you say " without a torch ". Just watching from a far - one can really appreciate everything you've been doing, with a definate understanding that it is not for the light hearted. This is definately a "jump in and hang on - it's going to be a heck of a ride" type of thing. The learning experience is priceless!!!! You are now getting much more wiser and getting so much charactor built up, that you will have plenty for reserve LOL. Jake - keep the trek going - your getting to the point of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Thank you guys for your wonderful support-all too often i forget to simply say, Thanks! John,you're spot on:I AM way too close,nowhere near enough perspective on the work as a whole.The mistakes that i make now even i should(do)know better. It's NOT an excuse(no such creature at the forge,alas!),but,dammit,i do feel so unpleasantly,and most counter-productively,rushed. My stinking schedule is very pressing,i need to produce,and that's all that there is to it.Period. Otherwise,i'd seriously consider cutting up this project into smallish segments,picking out the ones that are satisfactory,re-forging the ones that are not,and re-assembling it,Using the Information that you've so kindly provided. As it stands,i'll print it out,and paste it into a set of notes for the future. I'd strongly suggest doing something of the sort to anyone,have a set of paper notes,for reference. I'd better get my sorry ass out to the forge now,it's woefully late in the day here(making fuel evey night doesn't help the rushed order of things here,barely leaves time to grub up...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 P.S.Only a couple of hours into the forge-day,i've already broken enough stuff to've entirely negated all the forging done yesterday Time for a quick,python-style,feeding,and re-reading John's sage advice. I'm afraid that my head is so firmly wedged up the deepest,darkest,most unmentionable recess of my physiology that i can't even very well comprehend the details of the proposed move(s). Time to regroup my thoughts,Yogi-like,as i'm having trouble lining up that donor for the brain transfusion that i've been looking for,for so long now.Either that,or make a super-human effort to extricate my head. This latter procedure is known in medicine as the Rectal Encefalectomy,and is accompanied by a loud popping sound,and an Instant solution to All the blacksmithing woes I wonder if i'll ever manage to accomplish it... :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 jake - you are hilarious!!! i am going to bed now, but i am laughing, yet again, at your ex funny talk good luck, the best of it, with the extraction process boy ! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Jake don't try to do the donation with Frosty's brain as it was "shaken not stirred" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Uff...That was tough,the last couple of days.Today,too.Wonder what's up with all that,some childish relapses into not being able to make a sound plan. I had to re-forge everything made yesterday,all riveted,this time,and then i was actually regaining the upper hand with the project.And had a great time through the rivetting,and slitting and drifting mortices. Then everything spun out of control again,while assembling the whole,and by then i've been at it 10 hours,hadn't made fuel for the next day(let alone any chores),it was quitting time. The silly thing did NOT get an upper hand on me afterall,but it did get mighty weasely on rivetting the tenons(of course,i'm a greedy moron,and had way too much sticking out of mortice...too tired to think,which is a sorry excuse,i just can't think ahead at all,allergic to it,see... ) Often,on a grueling day forging,some weird thing plagues my weird mind.Today it was this old Buddhist saying,"And on the day of the great liberation,you will laugh and laugh!" I'm not sure what degree of greatness of liberation i had in mind,maybe it differed throughout the day,but it was a cheerful weird thought,in any case . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 12 out of ten for effort and persistence Jake, and I think you have captured the essence of what you set out to do, and made a unique item, (all you need now is to take it to your forthcoming event and to have someone come along, purchase it and then ask you to make another one so they have a pair, then you will have some fun). You have achieved the most difficult part of the project by finishing it to your concept/design (be it in only your minds eye and a couple of chalk marks on a sheet of steel) The easy part is now to analyse what you did, and how would you do it the next time, if you had to do it again, and more importantly why you would do it differently. I think this has been an excellent project with a shed load of knowledge being accrued along the way and shared with others for everyones benefit I hope they have taken note for future reference as there are many techniques in there that are slightly out of the norm, and yet basic at the same time (if that makes sense) I would like to see/hear your analysis and comments on your opinion of the finished article and how you think you would like to improve on it or not if you are satisfied with it. I shall await your comments as they will be more valuable to you for learning, rather than just taking someone else's view and accepting them when there is no definitive answer to a situation like this. Well done Jake, Unique, yes, Rustic yes, and definitely hand made, a credit to you, it may not be an award winning competition piece (yet) but it could be the basic plan for one Hmm, Would make a classic stand for a companion set. Bugger, I'm getting drawn in now despite myself. I'll stop now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 John,thank you for your high praise,i'm embarassed,if you'd only known just how far out of control i'd gone on this...But,fortunately,you also bring up all these wonderfully wise points,i'm extremely grateful for all your guidance in all the stages-the planning,the specific advice during the thick of the struggle,and now,in this very important stage of the final analysis-what can be learned from this job?!For that is the ultimate question that the craftsman can ever ask,when the design and the thought is laid against the physical reality,when the rubber actually hits the road.But the recent naive views and thoughts are still fresh in one's mind. There's a silly,old construction site joke about how there are no architects in heaven,because Jesus was a carpenter.There's a lot of truth to that,most architects that i've known were dolts,with a vision of forms that had NO connection to any reality of material.Now that i serve as my own architect,i carry on that schizophrenic struggle all on my own. In the beginning of all this,Beth has posted a photo of that mind-blowing ceiling in the cloisters of the Gloucestershire Cathedral.I was instantly fired by an idea to reflect some of it,if only a very little,in a piece of iron. That quickly fell apart,my "talent" in no wise could stretch to that,and so i went on just along the lines of older English architectural forms in general. Right about then it was that you've posted those photos of detail in your scrap heap.That REALLY makes one think,as basically it is all there:Simple shapes(regular,rectangular section of strap)start aquiring that magical proportions.There's tons of subtle things that go on there,and that scrap pile can,and should,be studied again and again.A few of the things that i noticed were that there were NO radical bends(nor changes in mass).You've said by then that there was no collars.Welding there was minimal,and of the simplest kind,just a gently diverging 2 or 3 at most part patterns.So,how was that effect achieved(as it is certain that a definite unique effect dwells therein)?It must be that it's the shape of those arcs,and their convergence and divergence... Unable to analyse all that intellectually,i had to just go by designing and attempting to forge to that,having to redesign,and try again,and so on till my original plan was in shambles,and i was out there,up the creek without a paddle... I'm going to have to roll back out there in a minute,so for now i'd just say a couple of words about this one particular situation,where the arched deal comes to a sharp inside corner. In your samples it's often achieved by a simple mitered joint.It appears to not even having to be fastened,as the lobed parts comprising it are themselves fastened so securely(i've noticed the abundance of fasteners right off,but was too dumb to interpret it then). To me,such sharp corner said:Faggot-weld(as the true sq.corner is so laborious ).It proved to be dead wrong. Faggoting is not the strongest joint,if much subsequent forming is to be done to it after. Also,that "point" is more often not a point at all,but the IDEA of one.That was one thing that i had to learn by hammering,not being capable of SEEING it in my mind.(I've ended up rivetting the ends to pinch them together,not the ideal solution as the rivets become inaccesible after forming,and any hot-forming also loosens the rivetted joint). I'll be glad to go into this in further detail later,but the overriding moral here is becoming clear,i think.It is something that comes up in about every post ,but i'll reiterate it just one more time: Planning.To an Exact detail.Size of stock,it's exact Form,and the type of Joinery.The Plan needs to be there,and it must be Complete. All in all,there're many details in this that i'm less than proud of.I'll go ahead and finish it,the best i can,and try hard as i can to remember these lessons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jura T Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 The answer is simple-i've stepped too far outside of my experience and capability,have challenged meself too steeply. But stepping out of one's comfort zone is where the learning happens. Now you know more about your capabilities. Good job on the candle holder. I'm glad you showed all the steps and problems making it. It helps all of us to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Jake, I believe that is a wonderful piece of work. You've done yourself proud. Much better than I could have done. I can't weld a lick and have no way to make tennons at all. Being a construction worker by trade and a carpenter by chance, I could produce one using those techniques. ie, cutting them to shape with a hacksaw. Of course that would take forever and while I know the joint would be tight, to my way thinking the wrong way to go. My lack of proper tooling is the issue. I need a butcher, top and bottom and a set of monkey tools. All of which is commercially available of course. I know where to buy them. I just don't know that I want to at this time. So these types of projects may be beyond my ability for a while. All that said. I really respect your tenacity. You saw this through to its conclusion and that in its self is very satisfying. I really need to get into the shop more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Jake, I believe that is a wonderful piece of work. You've done yourself proud. Much better than I could have done. I can't weld a lick and have no way to make tennons at all. Being a construction worker by trade and a carpenter by chance, I could produce one using those techniques. ie, cutting them to shape with a hacksaw. Of course that would take forever and while I know the joint would be tight, to my way thinking the wrong way to go. My lack of proper tooling is the issue. I need a butcher, top and bottom and a set of monkey tools. All of which is commercially available of course. I know where to buy them. I just don't know that I want to at this time. So these types of projects may be beyond my ability for a while. All that said. I really respect your tenacity. You saw this through to its conclusion and that in its self is very satisfying. I really need to get into the shop more. I concur wholeheartedly that Jake should be proud of his achievements. We learn by our mistakes, and this has been a great learning journey for all who have followed it, and respect to Jake for bearing it and allowing us to participate upon it. now there is a foundatioon to build on and things will only improve for him now. And now Mr K Bryan Morgan I am afraid I am going to gently take you to task, and no offence meant or intended.My lack of proper tooling is the issue. I need a butcher, top and bottom and a set of monkey tools What a load of rubbish, Fear of failure is the problem as it is with most of us, If you know what tools you need, do you know how to use them, and why? And if so you can improvise (think like what would a blacksmith do.) or even make your own, that's what blacksmith's do. Sorry if this appears to be taking a harsh tone, I am just questioning why you think you need these tools and to get your thought processes going. A butcher, well an easily made tool, adapt a hot cut, hand held or handled doesn't really matter, a handled one is easier and more accurate to use, or just anneal a farriers rasp, forge the end to a flat sided taper relieve the centre portion, forge a waist around the centre to wrap a wire handle around then allow to cool, fit the wire handle, job done Top and Bottom, Top and bottom what? Butchers work to mark around a bar one face at a time so one size does a variety of different width bars plus other applications. A set of Monkey Tools. What size do you need, unless you have a specific situation on mind, the answer has to be I don't realll know. Use the piece you have made to fit it into as the monkey tool. You will need a punch (and possibly a drift) before you get anywhere near to needing a monkey tool. See where this is going? Some years ago in my naivety I inherited some "Certified, Qualified" blacksmiths when I took on another business. First task I asked was to have them make a simple ball on a stick handle poker, when I returned later that day no progress to be seen anywhere. They had made these when being trained I was told, so I could not see a problem, upon questioning, it appears they didn't have a tool to make them. Excuse me, hammer, anvil, forge, hardie/hot cut what more do you need? You don't even need tongs. (Blank Looks all round) apparently the way they were taught involved top and bottom dies under a powerhammer, not a clue as to what and why and how they made the original master to make a die from, or even what was happening in the dies, or even a close guess as to how it could be made until I managed to coax(guide) it out of them, They had the skills, but could not apply them in a logical manner or even make an intelligent guess as to how it should be done, amazing but true. Once they had the concept of forming a ring around a bar, forge welding this ring to the bar, forging this lump to the required shape (round,ball, squat ball, cube, hexagonal, whatever) then the light dawned. If you have specific tooling for a specific size it has to be commercially viable, Wht you do need is an understanding of what the tools do and will be of most use to you, sometimes it may be cheaper to buy comercially made tools and sometimes not its your choice. BUT they are not all necessary. Typical example is monkeying tenons, as I illustrated the best way (IMO) is to set the pieces together in the position they are intended to be, and as the tenon is made to fit the pre made slot. It has even more useful implications as you develop your skills and can make the finished job doable in less time. A lot of the problems I see with this craft is that people talk the talk but don't understand the language or terminology and how things progress or evolve. Understand and use it to your advantage, we all have a lot to learn, Have a look through the Blackmiths Tools Explained in the Tools Section and familiarise yourself with them if you haven't already done so, these aren't new tools they have evolved over generations (for a reason) Any questions, feel free to ask. Jake has already started to appreciate where he made it difficult for himself (I state this as opposed to him doing it wrong, which he didn't do) he just let the project evolve with an overall idea and this he achieved very nicely, I look forward to going through his process Sorry I have to go now Way past my bedtime and I have a very early start and long journey (Was going to say tomorrow, but its now) today Plenty of mileage and information left in this thread yet I believe, all concerned being willing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 John, no offense taken. Please understand that I like to have the tools. Its all I know. Right tool for the job. An axiom I've been told and have used for a very long time. I don't know any better is the only way I can tell you. I am an extreme novice, and am basicly learning by reading and this website. I have a bit of farriers rasp. A big enough piece to make what your talking about. Also some steel that Jake so graciously sent me, that is hardenable. I could use some of that as well. I have several punches, a few I made and I made a slitting chisel as well. At least that is what I'm calling it. I don't know if it is one. Made that out of some grade 60 rebar. Anyway my point is I have made a few things. I'll give the butcher a try this weekend and show it here. Might be made out of a large hex key Jake sent me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 john - what you say is dead right and must have frustrated you beyond belief on so many occasions over the years, your very direct and if people are listening, your comments are like an arrow on its target - i know this becasue it has taken me personally a long time to realise that i ahave been approaching the whole subject the wrong way round , like bryan said its all he knows - this is true and uncomplicated - no point forcing it - you just have to wait for the penny to drop, and some of us just ahve not spent enough time around the right sort of people ( good teachers - truly adept people - you john!!) to get a proper handle on this subject. my own scenario as you know, is art as my background - freedom , expression, bodging, nothing is wrong or right - go with the flow dont need to plan - planning KILLS! a lifestyle choice that, when i say i hold, still, dearer than life itself would be no exaggeration! BUT i have slowly realised that you cannot apply this way of thinking/being/working to bsmithing - not untill, at least, you have spent a truly pretty long time learning the basics to a realy deep point of understanding. then, of course you can do what you like. this thread has kind of resolved this for me, (thank you gentleman:) i mean that very sincerely) i have been througha few very odd years in my personal life, and somehow my desire for this bsmithing knowledge has got tangled up amoungst that stuff like these things do in your life ( nothing is separate) almost by chance, and, for instance re the tools, money has been thrown at me/my workshop by well meaning loving individuals in my life, prob in the attemtp to calm/soothe me ( this will make her less of a handful ect etc ) and i have been perplexed as to why i cant do this stuff! now john and most of the rest of you know why - its becasue i have not learned things in the right order with the right brain in my head. AND maybe more importntly, i really and genuinely did not realise what tools i needed - not the physical ones, but the mental and attitudinal ones, to do with being prepared and able to plan, learn sequences, this stuff aint freeforming - CANt be at my level otherwise you get what i have got - tiny little bits of information floating around like feathers, unatatched and meaningless, and totally useless to me!! this is such a relief to realise, and that all the fancy tools in the world not making any odds is quite normal and natural, and i just need to start again! its not me!!!! i cant tell you what a relief that is, becasue i so want to be able to make simple beautiful works in forged metal. i am tremendously inspired by john and jakes knowledge and attitude - and jake you give me hope cos your a bit random like me in nature, and you can mix this genetic kink with the craft and still get heart felt lovely well made results, with the correct thought and planning and TEACHING ..we shall see.. and my other revelation, is that far from helping, having tools (particularly bought ones - having missed the essential valuable learning available to us from making them) that you cant use is far far far far more depressing than having one hammer and a piece of s**t to hammer onto and being able to do things well. I compare the dead n lifeless musicians who keep buying more guitars but still cant play something with soul for toffee, to a dear friend who has the oldest piece of crap youve ever seen, worthless bit of battered wood, turns up on his bike with this thing bungeed to his back, and plays the most heartfelt and intricate sounds you could wish to hear. bryan what john said to youyour a wise man not to take offense, many would have heard that wrong and missed out, cos slowly (like me hopefully) you will start to get a handle on this Magnificent and Jaw Dropping craft hip hip hooray for john B!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 ps a parental note on this last bit of subject - which oddly i seem to apply quite naturally to my children- many times i ahve resisted buying the children tools of their chosen desire - guitars posh skateboards newer bmxs fancy software to do clever things, becasue i think it utterly kills the instinct, crushes the natural talent/energy just trying to emerge, and the hunger for learning if they ahve unneccasary equpiment before its needed, it can also intimidate adn feel like pressure (how dissapoiting!) rather than encouragement/soul food. (quite aprts from the fact that some children change their mind like the wind. ..) my son has saved for a long time for his own guitar ( he has played his dads for years - and has worked out many many learning problems on this guitar) and now that he has it , the pleasure is not only sweeter for waiting, (and he could make a rational desicion on exactlywhat He wanted as his chosen tool) but he has learned the Value and Use of a guitar , and what a Tool it is, what it can and poss cant do, its not just a symbol of something he wants to connect with, its something he knows in the real world pretty well now, in all its subtleties. so all you new mums and dads out there - my best parental advice for today - dont buy them the stuff!!!! let them LONG for it! let them WEEP for it! and actualy that goes for well meaning/worried spouses/friends- discern (somehow!) what it is your significant other Really needs, (or help them do that themselves ) and put your wallet away! pychobabble has finally come to a brief halt - be thankful.. over and out :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Persistence, struggle and the final gift of completion, a unrealized vision is only a hallucination... Funny, the more "stuff" I make the easier it is to let it go, because it is never finished, just a continuation. Great thread Jake and company, enjoyed it very much although I admit most has escaped me, from shear quantity and quality beyond my comprehension. Seems to me the straight line plan is in conflict with the process at times, but a sensible direction can lead to success, on most occasions. Off to beat on iron! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 8, 2011 Author Share Posted October 8, 2011 Wonderful,friends,wonderful and very difficult this path of ours. I believe that i part,the reason that we've been congregating here in this thread,is to escape the over-simplification of the craft. Something that wants to take it down to that least common denominator,buy X-size stock,put a plain twist in it,call it a hook... It's tempting,all right,as the opposite of all that,the getting into the depths of it all,is so Unsettling!!! "On his dreadful joiurney,after the shaman has wondered through the dark forests and over great ranges of mountains,...he reaches an opening in the ground.The most difficult stage of the adventure now begins.The depths of the underworld open before him." Uno Harva,quoted by Joseph Campbell in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces",quoted by me,from the(inimitable)"Watership Down",Richard Adams. Jura,you're right in a way that a challenge Can be constuctive,in a stimulating sort of way.However,challenging oneself very severely can damage much important machinery in one's mind.Best to work within a certain scope of one's skill. Prudence,in everything. I preach prudence for it is the most challenging thing of all for me.This last job proves it once again: Technically,i've fallen Awfully short of the mark(i'll spend a few days smearing the fudge around,forging the fitting base for the whole,in short,finishing the piece.I'll update as it happens). One thing about going way out on the limb of Out-of-Control is the very real potential for physical injury. Regretfully,my whole life i've been very one-sided(right-,),doing everything with my right hand,arm,that whole side of the body.My back's been in the basket for many years now,and i'm working on damaging the rest of this sorry body. Only a few months into the new to me regimen of splitting much wood for charcoaling,on top of forging,i'm still finding the limits of foolhardiness that i can get away with. In short,now i'm getting rid of my working arm(never dealt with this before).But nowadays,the feeling only comes back to it while forging,it's numb the rest of the time(typing is possible,but difficult). If i loose the stupid thing now i'm sunk,i cannot switch sides to save my life(whenever i've seen a welder switch an electrode to the other hand i grew extremely jealous,even has resolved to try to practice being ambidextrous...too late now,i fear). So,yet ANOTHER reason to do things RIGHT.I'll try to design a project that i can maintain the control over,throughout.It'll probably be a simple-ish trivet.Back up,try to find that exact boundary of my skill,worship the Controlled Forging,for It is the idea here,not much honor in loosing control.Plus,this physical debility is most unhandy. Bryan,i'll do my best to try to obtain a set of wheels while in Fairbanks,so that we could get together.We'll be only some tens of miles apart for a couple of months,and it'd be a shame if,like last winter,i'd be stuck in my dysfunction,only getting out to get firewood...(I'll be in a different area,but again 15+ miles off the pavement). Just to entertain you folks,i'll tell of the last winter's driving here:I came to Fbks to watch over a friend's place while they go down south on vacation.It was late November,and it was reasonably cold and wintry,and right then the rainstorm hit. I was driving with a friend one morning,and we've finally come to the paved highway,on the way into town.The road looked either wet,or icy,it was hard to tell,and both of us were too lazy to get out of the truck.The ground was cold,but the traffic,sometimes,can keep the road from freezing,under some conditions. Anyway,we drove on,till we were passing another road coming in from the side,(the one that i'll be living down this winter).I looked up it,and there,short way from the highway,in the middle of that paved road,a guy was ice-skating.Doing this beautiful figure-skating stuff,very gracefull.There was not much to say,obviously,the roads were Not wet... On days like that Fairbanks gets quiet and eery.Everyone's wondering if whatever it was that they had to do in town is worth dying for.And dying is not entirely that remote:Fairbanks is really spread-out,it's about impossible to get stuff done without driving long distances,one needs a car there.And sometimes,on mornings like that,one passes wreck after wreck,people with blanched faces huddling on the side of the road next to a wrecked vehicle,emergency services vehicles abound,sirens in the distance... Living in Fbks i've Detested having to get to work some mornings,taking my life in my hands for a silly excuse such as my job seemed against any common sense. Anyway,it can be tough for Bryan and i to get together,but we should try!The knifemaker's get-togethers at Mark's,is that in any way a regular happening?I'll bring some WI to bribe him,maybe we can use his shop! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Hi Beth, Dont forget your camera and notebook next weekend, and you can show these good folk what you can make from an old farriers rasp and a bit of a coil spring and how you went about getting there I had to stop off the numbers applying for a place as we have a possible maximum of 13 attending including TomN from here on iForge, any way apart from me being there I thought it best there was someone available who knows what is needed, and has a little experience of the craft so you will be well looked after. This will be his first session back after quite a long time, the medics have been busy getting him sorted somewhat and he appears to be potential stand in material for the Energiser Bunny's stunt man, will have to keep my eye on him, (Thats all I can spare, I can't keep up with him and wouldn't want to I'm saving energy, Mine!) I usually play his support act, this time roles will be reversed. I think its fair to say you should get a little of the basics you need to start opening up horizons, so be prepared. Nearly forgot just setting up next years courses, and have a two day forge welding course, steel and pure iron, bit of wrought too if you fancy, on February 5th and 6th if there is enough interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 8, 2011 Share Posted October 8, 2011 Jake, yes the meeting is a monthly gathering, the second Tuesday of each month. The next meeting is this Tuesday. I gave Mark you info and he has your email and phone. Nate has the email list and if you like I can give him your info too and you can be on the list as well. It sure was a wet day last November, I remember it well. We had that covering of ice on the ground and roads untill spring. It never did melt off. My truck is a decent 4x4 and I wouldn't go on the roads without it. It was slick as owl snot untill there was a good layer of snow over the ice. 4x4 is needed here, seems to me. Wasn't able to get into the shop today. Happens that way sometimes. I'll see if I can tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 john - yes to the forge welding - god knows i want that one!!! also - the energy bunny, he sounds like a good chap and i will be very nice to him and hopefully a good student ... - im looking forward to it openeing horiozons is what im after and your quite right john, dont know if you made head or tail of my last post, but ive decided to look at this subject as not something i can express myself in . YET . and take a different more appropriate approach - not sure if it made sense to you:) sometimes we arrive at the right position in the end, but lots of stuff can get in the way of that process and it can take time! but the best learning is misktakes you made yourself, they make the strongest impression. i will try my hardest to focus on what you guys are showing us, and not go off on a decorative trip before i can hold the hammer correctly and yes i will bring camera - i like takin pictures let meknow if you want me to bring anything else - i dont care what we make really - but if you wanted a list still, how about the Bum Tool, a curved leaf veining tool, that veining tool holder for the bench you showed me, something to put in the vice to make rivtets or the best simple thing, a stamp with a heart on it some smaller repousse tools, i want some tongs that fit jakes chain links, but i might try them this week if i get a chance. dont care if we do none of that though - like i said - i am interested in whatever youve got planned, and specially as there will be so many, its cool, doing loads of diff things will be nearly impossibel. bryan - if you dont go and get yourself to meet up with jake - i will personally be very offended ! i cant, so you must!!! DO watch the Owl Snot though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Speaking of owls... I hope they do not call your name for a very long time Jake! I have read a great book called "The Dog Who Wouldn't Be" by Farley Mowat. It contains some great stories about his two pet great horned owls! This is a book with a serious caveat... you mustn't be eating or drinking while reading it as that would induce serious risk of choking! You WILL LOL many times if you read this! Farley's book "Never Cry Wolf" is also excellent and was a very important book in establishing a public view of the wolf as an animal with a proper place in the ecosystem rather than a demonic killer. Sent to the arctic to establish a scientific excuse for wolf extermination (based on their supposed depredations of caribou) he instead created a powerful indictment of special interests (trappers) who were themselves devastating the caribou herds and sought to use wolves as scapegoats! I know that Jake would very well understand this book in ways that most of us cannot. In writing this I have googled up Mr. Mowat and I see that he has written many books with interesting titles that I have not yet read... I will be aquiring some of these! Sorry for the side trip but I think it worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Wonderful,friends,wonderful and very difficult this path of ours. I believe that i part,the reason that we've been congregating here in this thread,is to escape the over-simplification of the craft. Something that wants to take it down to that least common denominator,buy X-size stock,put a plain twist in it,call it a hook... It's tempting,all right,as the opposite of all that,the getting into the depths of it all,is so Unsettling!!! "On his dreadful joiurney,after the shaman has wondered through the dark forests and over great ranges of mountains,...he reaches an opening in the ground.The most difficult stage of the adventure now begins.The depths of the underworld open before him." Uno Harva,quoted by Joseph Campbell in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces",quoted by me,from the(inimitable)"Watership Down",Richard Adams. Jura,you're right in a way that a challenge Can be constuctive,in a stimulating sort of way.However,challenging oneself very severely can damage much important machinery in one's mind.Best to work within a certain scope of one's skill. Prudence,in everything. I preach prudence for it is the most challenging thing of all for me.This last job proves it once again: Technically,i've fallen Awfully short of the mark(i'll spend a few days smearing the fudge around,forging the fitting base for the whole,in short,finishing the piece.I'll update as it happens). One thing about going way out on the limb of Out-of-Control is the very real potential for physical injury. Regretfully,my whole life i've been very one-sided(right-,),doing everything with my right hand,arm,that whole side of the body.My back's been in the basket for many years now,and i'm working on damaging the rest of this sorry body. Only a few months into the new to me regimen of splitting much wood for charcoaling,on top of forging,i'm still finding the limits of foolhardiness that i can get away with. In short,now i'm getting rid of my working arm(never dealt with this before).But nowadays,the feeling only comes back to it while forging,it's numb the rest of the time(typing is possible,but difficult). If i loose the stupid thing now i'm sunk,i cannot switch sides to save my life(whenever i've seen a welder switch an electrode to the other hand i grew extremely jealous,even has resolved to try to practice being ambidextrous...too late now,i fear). So,yet ANOTHER reason to do things RIGHT.I'll try to design a project that i can maintain the control over,throughout.It'll probably be a simple-ish trivet.Back up,try to find that exact boundary of my skill,worship the Controlled Forging,for It is the idea here,not much honor in loosing control.Plus,this physical debility is most unhandy. Bryan,i'll do my best to try to obtain a set of wheels while in Fairbanks,so that we could get together.We'll be only some tens of miles apart for a couple of months,and it'd be a shame if,like last winter,i'd be stuck in my dysfunction,only getting out to get firewood...(I'll be in a different area,but again 15+ miles off the pavement). Just to entertain you folks,i'll tell of the last winter's driving here:I came to Fbks to watch over a friend's place while they go down south on vacation.It was late November,and it was reasonably cold and wintry,and right then the rainstorm hit. I was driving with a friend one morning,and we've finally come to the paved highway,on the way into town.The road looked either wet,or icy,it was hard to tell,and both of us were too lazy to get out of the truck.The ground was cold,but the traffic,sometimes,can keep the road from freezing,under some conditions. Anyway,we drove on,till we were passing another road coming in from the side,(the one that i'll be living down this winter).I looked up it,and there,short way from the highway,in the middle of that paved road,a guy was ice-skating.Doing this beautiful figure-skating stuff,very gracefull.There was not much to say,obviously,the roads were Not wet... On days like that Fairbanks gets quiet and eery.Everyone's wondering if whatever it was that they had to do in town is worth dying for.And dying is not entirely that remote:Fairbanks is really spread-out,it's about impossible to get stuff done without driving long distances,one needs a car there.And sometimes,on mornings like that,one passes wreck after wreck,people with blanched faces huddling on the side of the road next to a wrecked vehicle,emergency services vehicles abound,sirens in the distance... Living in Fbks i've Detested having to get to work some mornings,taking my life in my hands for a silly excuse such as my job seemed against any common sense. Anyway,it can be tough for Bryan and i to get together,but we should try!The knifemaker's get-togethers at Mark's,is that in any way a regular happening?I'll bring some WI to bribe him,maybe we can use his shop! I'd give my left arm to be ambidextrous :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 9, 2011 Author Share Posted October 9, 2011 It all sounds great,guys!Beth,i'm so glad that it's working out for you to get with John&Co,we all know how DIFFICULT it is to get away from life,ESPECIALLY for someone at the head of a large family(!),so all kinds of respect to you for working on that!!! If at all practicable,we'd all love so see your notes,or someone's "report" on your folks' thing there.Often,John himself does an EXCELLENT account in the Asssoc. thread,that, i once again,most humbly thank him for.It makes for some most valuable info great to refer to for years on end,while accessible on this site. Bryan,we'll keep on working all this out.It WOULD be very cool to get together around Mark's 108lb(is that right?)hammer.Actually,i missed Tom Clark there once,when he came to install the hammer for Mark(the class was full-up). But we'll also do some stuff together,too,wherever we can. I KNOW how hard it is to make time,Bryan,you shouldn't make it worse by kicking yourself for it.It IS a tough life,tough enough... (I've had a student here yesterday,a 14-year old boy,and after a 2-hour session he wanted to come back again today.I stingily declined(and still feel like a xxxx for it),and set him up with my friend Phil instead,who's more patient,AND a better craftsman anyway,and(all the other excuses...),but once a week is all that i can do now...). And,an emphatical BE XXXXXX TO THEE!!!,to all the institutionalised a...s,who have the time and the resources,ano won't lift a finger to do anything about addressing the NEED of the young for the Hands-On things to do,but keep cutting all the manual ed.type programs instead... Clay,i'd love to rattle on about Mowat,and will try,a bit later,gotto run,all the best to everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 9, 2011 Share Posted October 9, 2011 Hi Beth, All I can think of here is What size your Hardie hole and pritchel hole? no point in you making something that is goint to need a lot of adjustment to fit your weaponry when you get back home. Hows' about something on these lines, the objective being that you then you have the knowledge to go away and develop them into what you want to make, knowing the methodology and reasoning to make them in your own workshop. Introduction to tool steels easily accessible and traditional Files, coil and flat springs, drive shafts and torsion bars. Make a hot cut hand chisel from a file, Anneal, Forge later and heat treat end adapt for a handled hot cut and curved chisels From coil spring Make a hot punch Make a centre punch and heat treat (same principal as a cold chisel) Explain and demo hardening and tempering colours and testing the outcome. Make a touchmark (heart) convex, and concave in lozenge (repousse and eye tools similar) Then hardies, include bum and leaf vein tools plus other bits in between as arising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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