"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Beth, I'll do my best.

Jake, I'm not sure. I have seen the hammer in operation. It sure is a nice one. I would love to do that. The only experience with a power hammer I've ever had was at Frosties. His 50# Little Giant. I got the hang of it quickly and could see quite clearly the blows and what was happening with the steel in the dies. It was quite a good experience and I look forward to more of those.

John thats a good list of items to make. I'll try and get some springs.

[jake pogrebinsky]

Hey,this is what i figured:John does a great job of representing the way things Must Be Done.
My role here,sometimes,is to provide a number of examples that show that,indeed,things do need to be done That(the right)Way.

Sometimes one needs to learn things more than once,or even twice...Many a thing took me a number of years,and tries,to get through my thick skull(some still bounce off...).

I'm in a process of back-pedalling very hard,paying for the lapses of attention and planning,on this one project.It'll soon be over,but meanwhile,i can't change my evil ways too abruptly-it'll not blend with the previously done stages.
I must continue to be half-assed about this!(we can do that,we have the technology! )

So,i need to end the project on the theme of a multi-foil,just like it started.For the pendant elements i decided to plagiarise Beth's curtain rod finials (i've coveted them ever since they appeared here a few weeks ago!).

As usual,some chain-link stock prep,this ones are hefty,5/8"-11/16" round.They make sq.stock about 9/16"(i don't know why! but it's not 1/2" or 5/8" ).





And,check out this funky set of tongs!I found two pair of these,one a bit larger,scavanging for the steam-engine parts in the historic boom-town of Ruby!The rivet is a sq.ring on one side,where the stock passes through...They're great for faggoting long lenghs:



A faggot-weld and a subsequent fuller,leaving a presumably welded blob for beating into the pendant.



Pendant is formed somewhat,set down from the stock height as well:



Now the two legs of the future Multifoil are forged some,their "roots",where they attach to pendant.I've some sinister plans for forging them,but for now it's good that they're tapering evenly,and are reasonably symmetrical.
Forging two things together like that is interesting...It Can be done,and Is a useful technique for some situations.



The pendant element gets molested by a small ball-pein,looks cool,if you ask me!



I've needed two of these,but made them one after another,5/8"-ish stuff doubled,in a charcoal fire,by hand,thinking as i forge...One is plenty.But one right after another still makes for a decent similarity,likeness of elements,it'll do.
So,towards finishing the second one,i have some lenght of weld-failure.Nothing drastic,just imperfectly joined edges forged out as a cold-shut.



And only NOW,at THIS point,i realise what a MORON i am! For i've known,for a long time now,that one MUST give the pendant element a 90 deg.twist,so as not to be forging vertically into the weld-seam,but forging it skew-weld like!!!
Oh,well,it may take me a dozen more times to remember it AFTER i've already pouded it into a wrong configuration!

[jeremy k]

Jake - those do look like a pretty handy pare of tongs that just happen to fit your stock size easily....Nice! Thank you for the pictures of the pendant element. I'm sure I may have see something about the twisting of the stock - like you say so your not forging the weld and getting a slight split - good mental note for me. Now, if I would just remember it until I need to use it.

[beth]

john that all sounds fab - the hole is 1 inch and a 1/4 , and things of an inch are fine sounds like loads you got prepared!! hope i can take some of it in..... i must dash i dont have time (should not have started writing) but jake thats looking so sweet!!! i too love your fancy tongs, and jeremy - write it down! you know you wont remember! ( i dont think I will...) and then in 25 years time when i do it - i can ask you what it was that jake did that i needed to remember about that weld splitting... i love how you did em jake :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Sounds great,Beth,it's a deal then.In 25 years i should be just about getting some idea of how it's done,at the rate that i learn.

The plan was to beat each of these into a tri-foil.So the next move was to forge a pendant element next to the existing one.Soon,it was obvious that it won't fly.
Even before the questionable weld-seam blew apart,i was having problems trying out this other theory,of turning the pendant to face a 90 deg off.Forging the fuller to accomplish it,rounding it,to avoid visible twist there,have all started changing the geometry on me into an unacceptable,for my future plan,direction.
I went ahead and pushed it till it broke,a little destruction testing goes a long way,in learning.

One of the things that i thought were particularly harmfull was the vibration.To help with that,i kept on using the box-end tongs,plus a wire-wrap,strictly as a vibration dampener.

It SEEMED to've worked.By using higher range of heat,and making SURE that the weld halfs get blended together,i think that i MAY squeak by(if i don't overwork the other parts,which i need to work severely,actually...).



One side,then the other:



Now,there was still an unbroken part of yesterday's forging.I figured that i may as well try it,before remaking this one as well(making more stock,and re-forging the other piece have taken a couple-three hours,and now it was well into the afternoon...).
It held up :




But at the base of the element the weld is beginning to come apart:



Now,that got me to thinking:"Dang,how DO they do that?I mean,"For realz",like the kids say nowadays!What's the Right way of doing this?"

My own thoughts on that is that the weld is made towards the end of all other forging,and the connections between the elements are normally LESS in section/mass then the elements themselves.Those connections are normally round,and end up forming easy,circular shapes.
Many times the element itself is forged sideways,to begin with,and takes a turn towards the end of the process.
That turn is not the tidiest,but,heck,these are a multiple,repeated element of grate infill,their nature does not require the most of anal finishes.
The crucial thing about them,and the like,is that they're a Two-sided deal,visible from both sides.
I'm attempting to use the design for a flat,one-sided member,and i want the certain finish.Bevels,facets,some other stuff.
It may well be in vain,but i'll try,anyway.

The screw-ups make me scramble for fuel.Usually,a drum of charcoal gives me 5-6 hours of forging.But forging,alas,is quite distinct from Welding

So i've had to make another drum after work,as well as one before.Else,i may run short tomorrow,a drum a day at the very least is what i seem to go through.

Making a barrel of charcoal is not a great deal.It's an hour or two of scurrying,and then not spacing out on shutting it down at some point later.
The wood is in Plentious(cool English word )supply,much of it even in necessary short rounds,so that the smithing life is good

[jeremy k]

Jake - http://www.abana.org...%234/HB11_4.pdf on page 14 there is an article on quad foils. It shows to decorate the buttons/pendents "after" welded into a ring. This, I can see would help tremendously keep the whole piece from the dreaded vibration issues. :D

[beth]

that vibration thing is something i have only just become aware of, and strangely it is being mentioned in a few places at once on here - its obviously something to take into account ... jake - your work is so interesting to watch, as is your descripton interesting to read. thankyou! good idea to use your coolio tongs and wrap it up to reduce vibrations - i cant really imagine how much time you have to spend making charcoal - thats crazy - but i guess its working for you! i like the process of charcoal making - there are some kilns or what you would call them up near me on one of the Country Estates have not seen them becasue its private but would like to. i knew a man who lived in some woods near us (who had all sorts of probs from the council )(not like where you are where this kind of lifestyle choice might well be commonplace he coppiced that bit of wood, and made all kinds of stuff, but as well, charcoal. i liked looking at it all. you are so hands on with the entire process at your place and beacsue of that, i reckon you must be connected on a very deep level with what youre doing. Thats Very Groovy ! I Like It
i tried to make fmy rudimentary tongs today, and i tried some i saw technicus joe make on you tube, i thought i copied him entirely but they did not work for a few reasons :0 my main problem , something that haunts m ewherever i go was that i spent foolish foolish ammounts of time working out which was round to turn each mouth section through 90 degrees, i just couldnt work out if they were to be the same or mirror image, or sadly, even which way to turn it to make them the same! i have inordinate trouble with this kind of stuf (including numbers mainly and measurements ....) well its obvious to normal folk, but i did the first one, then i faffed about at the vice in a swirling sea of doubt, twisted one way, then the other by which time i had weakened it to the point where the end broke off. (i had not left enough - i should have only cut half way through... nxt time i will..) So i welded it back on, simply so i would be able to carry on and learn and know how they went together`!!, biut i welded it on the wrong way, i cut it off and did this Two More times.... its bloody ridiculous. just could not get it clear . so so stupid. anyway they were both on and then the two would no where near meet! and i realised lots of other things along the way so not AT ALL wasted time, but a bit silly im sure youll agree. here you can see half what i did. i will start again next time im in there. i had not got the reins the right size either!






jake - apologies for even entering this nonsense on the same thread as your preposterously fabulous project :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Beth,the dyslexia stalks all of us,equally!There was many a time where I HAD to look at the existing set of tongs to figure it out.
I've built them crooked,and i've built them weak,and left-handed,inadvertently,and so heavy that your hernia crawled lifting them...
I've screwed tongs up in so many ways that it staggers the imagination!

And it IS good to screw up,or at least educational.But,just for the record:The halfs are identical(not mirror).The reigns work good right around 1/2" round stock or so.

The way of constructing them that looks like you've chosen does not appear sound.If i'm reading this correctly,someone had figured on "cheating",and using less stock dimention.That part that you're supposed to twist should,really,be drawn out of solid mass.In any case,an indent of such depth would fatally wound and doom a chunk of steel.
Really,the smallest waist-ed sort of a place on a tong should equal the reign in section,at the least.But it's atill may not be enough,as proportionately it may still become weak,and thus,fall a victim to flexure soon.

I've built(and broken)many sets of tongs,and am here to tell you that you can do it!Find a better design,and make them heavy as you can .And every transition,as gently radiused as possible,for the abrupt trans.is where the stresses concentrate.
Is there a set of tongs handy,for to look at,around your place?

[beth]

jake bless you bless you yes there are some weird tongs at mine - heavy bent up things, and a bought flat pair - i was looking at them all but i still coulnt think what they were doing ... it sounds so stupid but my mind goes completely blank - yes the dyslexia, certainly does Not haunt everyone though my dear man cos otherwise i would be able to understand what the hell it was they were talking about! some people, this type of thing seems to come very naturally. which is nice for them! what i did was use two pieces that i had drawn to taper from something LIKE 3/4 inch round, ( you will maybe notice i dont even rarely ever give accurate stock sizes... i hop there is hope.. )i flattened the untapered thicker original section for the tong end, and i left the smaller slightly tapererd section for reins, then i did that cut bit and turned the end round. i was going to refine the bit where the rivet goes through (nameof which i dont know.) but there was no point by that stage should i abandon this way ? it said european tongs by technicus joe on you tube - he is that dutch guy on here, they just looked simple....

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thank you,Jeremy,that was a great issue of The Hammer Blow!I remember when it came out,and my friend and mentor Phil has brought a copy out to my camp(initially,he turned me onto forging(and has given me a full set of tools),as a homesteading expedient).
Well do i remember looking through this very issue,thinking:"This is impossible!!!I'll never get there!HOW did these people get so good at it?!"
I'll always remain deeply grateful to all those people,Brian Gilbert in particular,and many whose names i've forgot(but would instantly recognise their ironwork!),as that was practically all that i've known of blacksmithing world,for many years.
And now i thank you,JK,most kind of you to re-introduce me to them!

[jake pogrebinsky]

I know what you mean,Beth,it sounds sensible(and really,there're very few to whom it comes easy,for most,like it is for thee and me,it a frustrating struggle).
I can't watch videos here,with my band-width,but i just dislike that deep cut.
The Extremely Simplified version would be to put them together flat,and after rivetting,turn both bits together 90 deg.in the vise.
For the simple,flat-bits tongs,it may even be better-no ruinous indent.

[beth]

i hear thee jake if you say its ruinous, it can b****r right off... :)

[beth]

soryy jake am asleep... so is that bit just too thin or isit the twisting thats so devastating? your prob rigfht about the people vast amounts who dont understand a ruler either - i expect i just hone in and magnify on, the ones that do becuase they exxaccerbate my natural paranoia to do with this subject... as usual, you offer balance and perspective brother have a good evening :)

[beth]

well shipmates i just had a very edifying weekend in the oracles cave!!! you can see the hammer head making bit on the other thread, he made light work of that, and his striker norman, despite the fact that he is in his late 70's and had just had a heart operation.... also we made some scrolling pliers, and lots of little punches (john really made most of 'mine' cos he cant stop himself, makes him whistle infact, with pleasure also we learned , most importantly to me, john IT WENT IN I DO BELIEVE IVE GOT IT.... about he heat treating and all that stuff, i now can see the "logical sequence of events" a bit clearer and they make sense in my language which is of Huge Use cos i can now keep my tools hard ! YIPP ee. i proved that the cutting tools i made out of farriers rasps were sharp becasue i repeatedly used them over the weekend and their shape and effectiveness did not change happy girl i needed boring amounts of help on orienting my tongs, but again, i think it has gone in, am gnoring terms like left and right, instead going for keep going that way (pointing with the thumb) or keep going that way (pointing with the thumb). so feel like i have come away with actual help on what i needed. Thankyou John, you have shown continued tolerance/patience - like all the best people here is some photos, also my moment of childish but undeniable pleasure (aparts form seeing the hammer , that was pleasure of a more Sombre nature ) was when i realised i could use my new heart punch as a rivet tool, and SO (this wont be lost on you jake ) i have a heart shaped rivet on my new tongs ... Now that is so CAYYYOOOOOTe i cannot put it into words. makes my skin feel funny that is def the way forwarrd for all my tongs

so here are some rasp cutting tools some others made...



here is my pliers, with their mark of LOve..





these are not great pictures, cant get very good close ups with my camera, but the heart punches and the eye/petal punch, got hold of the whole make a punch to make a better punch thing at last - thumbs up







here also for amusewment value dear ship souls, is the oracles midas hand - it is laughabley BIG athough we did measure and mine are infact as long, i guess and as wide, but johns are well, BIGGER. its got to be looked at but for good measure john i have put on one of my own, we can compare the different nature of hand physionomy - i find it endlessly fascinating. now johns hand - thats a blacksmiths hand!!




actually to ram the point home about my Large Manly limbs, one of the guys on the course was complaining that the tool steel was a bit tough to forge, thus turning to the power hammer, and he said his arms were not as big as johns so how could he manage (john is no weed !!) but the rest of us had managed and i said well your arms are bigger than mine- what you on about!! and he pulled up his sleeve and said they are not... and i had to agree!! .... that was a ladylike moment v funny :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Well,then!
Such excellent news,Beth,very happy for you,indeed!Sounds like a very CONSTRUCTIVE time that you all had,it must feel VERY gratifying to participate in something like that.
Thanks for the photos of the tools,they're WAY cool!
And thanks to all of you for passing on the knowledge,for keeping it all alive,by teaching,and learning,and being interested in all that-that is so ever important!!! :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

OK,so,all my attempts to support the Carpetbeater upon a footing made up of multifoils has failed,crashingly(i won't tell how many versions i've gone through that ALL broke!).It was time to radically change the plan(it's a great thing that i've never had a plan to begin with,or i'd regret having broken THAT,too ).

So i've made a ring,for the base.And what a skimpy,tinny,measly and pathetic ring it was!Totally unsubstantial.So i've set out to change that by the APPLIQUE of more iron.(Hey,there're worse ways of cheating at the forge ).

I've experimented with assorted blobs of iron till i've come up with a greatly original design-having 4(four!)indents from a punch!!!I thought that it was brilliant of me,and proceeded to make a great many of those:







See,i ended up needing a GREAT many more than i though i'd need,originally,and here's why,as it turned out:I wanted the FAT,as i felt very deficcient in fatness of it all particularly.
And the fatter something like that is,the further it travels,when it pings out from under a misdirected blow!WHERE it travells to,i couldn't say,there's many a strange nook and cranny in my forge.In any case,what they say around these parts when something pings off into some strange dimention is:"The Little People need ...(fat little iron elements,in this case) too!".
Fine,then,so i made a bunch more!(what do i care,i've already a couple of months into this lovely carpet utensil )

Anyway,before long,i was up against a whole bunch of rivetting.No problem,rivetting is something that i can,actually,do.Here's all the parts that the Little People did not need,ready for rivets:



Here're the parts to be rivetted,as well as the rivet blank.You'll note that the head,at this stage,is a section of a cone.It is because my orifices are a sec.of a cone.And THAT,is because my punch is...et c.(And all because i'm too lazy to drift the holes... ).




Anyway,works like a charm,and all got rivetted up.






In the process two Ingenious tools were invented and manufactured(All to better rob the poor Little People ).This handy device to keep the fat iron blob on the anvil-face,where it belongs:




And also,this handy attachement for heating even the tiniest rivets in my untidy charcoal forge(the Little People CAN"T,possibly,need more rivets.I've NO idea what they'd do with the ones they already have,must be pounds of rivets!):




And finally,this canny Russian that i know ended up with this curious book,(by means fair or foul,i know nowt):



And now,i know what my next project is going to be!!!It is this:



It's the mammaries,of course,that draw me!I had no idea that the dragons were thus endowed!Is it only the female ones,is that it?!But i surely never seen one like it!(Christopher Ray,so THAT's where you got it all from?)Anyway,i just need to finish up with the carpet beater,it pales so in comparacence with that rich,German forging...

[beth]

jake - my fabulous friend - im speechless! am clapping hands with delight!! this is so deliscious - the fatness is EXEMPLARY!! i love love love it - you have completely changed horses here- and it looks wonderful.!!! i only came on here to re read about my mundane Tongs, and noticed your post - i absolutely think its FW, the layout the marks, the fatness, the fairytale magic its all THere! i hope your really happy with it?? i DREAM to achieve FATness in my work, its such a satisfying look, it has gravitas and WEight and the tactile sense of how the marks came into being, i cannot TELL you how much i approve wholeHeartedly ( for what thats worth) of what youve done also groovy holding down idea, my stuff jumps about a lot, and i dont even get anywhere near as chubby as that (one day!!!) will remember your simple but i assume, effective tool for when i have made the correct tools for making the depth dimension of such mark making. You my friend are a natural decorator and the world need s more like you!! bravo hip hip hooray and hallelujah the boy done good :)

[beth]

ps - the mammification project - lets go! cant wait to see your interpretation of such a fine beast !

[bigfootnampa]

First a practical suggestion: I have several old cast iron ladles that I acquired from antique stores and flea markets which I have found will withstand repeated high heating without melting away... they are quite useful for heating small rivets and similar parts without losing them into the fire.

[jeremy k]

Jake - I think you just made a great base for your rug beater project. The use of the "fat" bits and the chiseled/punched designs look super. I think we may have talked about the boldness looks of deep chisel cuts with thicker metal earlier in this thread, or it may be somewere else my mind is or was. The details again Jake looks great

[beth]

ah.. the mummification project then,.. ... doesnt have quite the same ring does it?
JK - yes bold deep and thick, all Very Very good things when using decoration i think that WAS on this thread - although there are not many subjects we havent covered extensively !

[beth]

just been reading the website for chris ray who we have seen on our disscussion here before too- wow what a lovely way of explaining himself this man had!! very interesting website packed full of technique advice and all sorts, fantastic - a great legacy for all intersted parties :)

[Randy]

Beth, Chris was my best friend for many years and a better artist I've never seen. What a talent! And not just in metal. Also in drawing and wood carving. He even wrote a play, the music for it, all done on the computer and the metal sculptures that were a part of the play. He even did his own website from scratch before they had the fancy programs they have today. And his website is still a classic.I've never seen anyone push around sheet metal like he did! Compound curves and all. After his passing they did a gallery show of his works at one of the ANANA Conferences. What a body of works! He is sorely missed.

[Dick L.]

Jake,

That is outstanding work ! I really like the detail and how it all fits together. Thanks for sharing !

Dick

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thank you guys for all these thoughts(Beth,you're one of the guys,right?).
Randy,i can only hope that you've not seen any disrespect to Chris Ray in ANYTHING that may've passed here-we all(i think that i can speak for so many of us here)admire him,and his work immensely.That "dragon"(actually,it's probably meant to be a Basilisk,woman's breasts being one of it's traditional attributes)did make me think of one of the sculptures in the "Mansect"series,thus the allusion.
Jeremy,thanks,and yes,i believe that old saw of Yellin's have flashed on by here:"...Any mark worth making,is worth making Boldly...".
And i agree with you and Sam,the chisel marks do add SO much!And there're such a part of everything that we do,they really deserve to be leaving an impression of their own.So many times i've noticed just how Rich some tool-mark looked-a hardy cut,or,especially,the tines cut apart by hot-cut:It actually adds to them 2 more (unearned)facets.
We all know how cool the punching can look when done under a giant hammer,pulling the material toward the punch,creating this undulating distortion.That surface of distortion in and of itself has an absolutely priceless texture(and,speaking of that,again a certain point rears up:The Process itself gives us the Aesthetic.THAT is,or seems to me,the richest lode of iron forms/textures-that which arises in the process of forging...(Getting carried away,as usual...)).

Dick,you're MOST welcome,and this is exactly what it's ALL about,sharing.And as a part of that,helping folks to demistify the apperance of complex-looking forgework.We all practice here by breaking it down into the minutiae of hammer strokes and punch imprints(thus the bunches of photos of assorted stages of the process).