"Of Shoes,and Ships,and Sealing Wax ..."

[Randy]

Production in quantities. There are those that are masters of hammering out the same piece over and over. I knew one guy who made thousands of wall hooks. That was about all. And he was happy doing it. That would drive me buggie. Thene there are thhose who do thousands of fence or railing banisters. Not my forte either. Find what you are good at and then set your limits. If you are good at mass production, then good for you. If not, then find where you stop. I had a similar job as you Jake in doing 80 forged scroll pickets for a rialing. With a back angle. I hated it! Took two months to do and I fought it every step of the way. I've had other jobs that were higher quantities but not as complex a piece and they just flew and I had fun doing them. We all have our skills and limitations. Either find them or learn new ways to make the parts.

Jake, did you ever punch holes in the WI before splitting? The old way was to punch a hole at either end of a slot before slitting. That will push the grain around the punch and then you have less chance of the slit tearing. You must have some well refined WI as much of what I've worked with would have just split up the piece in what you have achieved.

Don't know about looking for mom or dad, but we are family. Okay, let's all sing along now...

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks all you guys for this input,often,it's what i mull over many times and hours,in the day.
I also try to post,or answer to the posts,thoughtfully,and so think about that,too.
Unfortunately,by the end of the day my mind's too tired,that,and company.I'm a village dweller,and the traffic through my place is incessant.(I Try not to resent it,but it's tough,sometimes,especially when things are pressing).

John,thank you,you're,of course,very right.Especially on an outdoor object,the wood will be unhappy in direct contact with steel,in compression,as well.
The plan is to make bolsters/washers out of that thick-ish(1/8")copper that i have.They'll get tacked on by some brass brazing rod pins that i'll make,and/or be bedded in some goop.I'll leave extra movement in a key-way for the seasonal shrinkage,the key's pointing down and so may even self-adjust(it would if i cleaned the mortice smooth and neat inside).

Sorry about the obscurity of my photos,this project is especially tough to make head or tails of.this is one photo that i forgot to post.It's the bottom bracket that'll catch the bottom end of handle,which is just a vert.stick of hickory.(and it's basically all that i've accomplished yesterday,it's scary how slowly i work...):



Randy,thanks,an emphatic yes to all of the above!
And yes,you're correct in that much of this WI is rather well refined,these sudden failures nonwithstanding(It's almost a shame to be burning it up in ornamental work,should save it for tool bodies...).Often it surprises me with what it lets me get away with.
I have tried punching holes at terminus of split before,it was weird...The Vibration/Harmonics(here they are again)do some strange stuff with the traces of holes later,as i do the slit and work it.That great compression that the punch applies sideways,where there's less stock,really distorts the piece...
Naturally,isolated as i am,my findings/conclusions are often ...Odd,shall we say?May have to look into this again.

Beth,dearest,i'm sorry,i'm just being contrary,and Devil's advocate-ing,just out of some stubborness(Plus,people walk in in the middle of my writing the philosophical treatise,and i loose my train of thought).
Of course i am the Designer here,and do design things to look the certain way.
In a way,that is bad,and i actually have to fight my own bad taste;for remember,i've no education in design,nor much systematised knowledge,nor,yet,am i working in any stable tradition that'd allow me to rely on a set of rules already established.
One HAS to watch one'e own potentially bad,kitschy,taste.My friends in Russia make fun of me for(subconciencely(sp?))copying the style that was so prevalent in the old parts of Moscow,where i grew up.It was some sort of 19-teens/twenties Moderne ,lots of organic-appearing abstract shapes,gracefully and mindlessly weaving about.
Often,i peruse this russian site very much like this one here,extremely similar in fact,a general blacksmithing resourse.
It's FULL of bad Moderne,as most folks on it are actual working smiths,and their work reflects the expectations of the consumer there.It's quite vapid,much of it,anyway,and repetative,and not very "alive"...It's an artificial style that was engendered,in part,by the advent of Arc welders.All of a sudden the smith could tack anything on in ANY way!The ironworkers went nuts!
That,and the attempts to copy the cast work,which Stemmed from forgings originally,but in the 1800's became much more flowery and curvacious.
So,all that bad heredity to overcome,takes energy!
(Interestingly,Russia was "always" a producer of quality iron,and famous for their smiths.But much urban work was mindless regurgitation of poorly understood European styles,done for the gentry who lacked taste or sense.There're some wonderful native ironwork designs there,based on extreme skill of those smiths,but it was too classy to be very common,and remained obscure...).

[beth]

jake - i too am devils advocate im glad you are admiting Design, although i think the troubles and our own awful taste is something we all face - i have terrible taste often, (in so many areas) sometimes the kitsch is just Soooo appealing bu tby doing what youre doing, listening to the material and watching it as you do, authenticity, and thus style, will win the day. kitsch MAY even play its part ... your approach - its an unusual approach to decorative iron work, but a completely groovy one in my oppinion, to do with physics and all that molecular stuff - harmonics grain structure - reallyinteresting and an entirely appropriate stance for you to take:) i must look at some of the russian moderne that you talk of..... as for art educated - you simply are, you use your eyes and your brain continuously, thats an art education.. we could sit about defining and redefining these things all day long, but the facts (proof and pudding etc ) of what youre making are the main thing, with all the constant worries about doing it wrong way, you are infact continuing to produce work personal to yourself, with a use, and an wonderful aesthetic, derived and helped along by who you are. i love it the hole in the end of that piece looks amazing - so chunky and heavy. also how youve curled one in front, one behind.
beautiful love also how the square of the initial cuts on the tines is clearly visible - it all adds up to a sensorily full experience i want to see it working, becuase i must admit to you, that i dont know how it will be, i cant understand, but i have had a half term house full of children and my brain has leaked out of my ears.... so i will await final pictures. jake its looking magic though. i have ferrrets ravaging across the keyboard, and in my apple crumble, so i must depart you for now.....

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thanks,Beth,it's sweet of you to say all these nice things,and to justify my erratic crazyness!
Ok,i'll make you a deal:If i make something that i actually like,then i'll admit to designership!
If it's too weird,and makes people wonder and think: "What in the..blazes kinda THING's that?",well,then it's from God!(Or them evil molecules,or any number of forces,i'll think of something).
Mysterious ways and all that,you know...

I'm trying to work both fronts,the forging,and the finish-work in my house where it's warm.Not very successfully,as the visitors then are too comfortable,and stay even longer...(It's ungracious of me to bitch about my friends visiting,i love them,and don't Really grudge the CONSTANT distraction.It's really a great and rare priviledge to work in this,the real village setting).

But again,the progress is very slow,only just beginning to fit the front copper bolster,and the carving of the wood is far from done...

Once again,John,(of course),was very correct about it not being proper to forge-in a mortice like that.
The gauge difference from hot-slitting is Impossible to flatten out.(The Vibrations:You cannot level a high spot by hammering next to a low one-the low will keep bouncing down as well,at least for a while).
There's a slight gauge inconsistence that my design accomodates,in this case,but...





And,just for the heck of it,some shots of winter wonderland!(In passing,i kinda notice what's up with the River,as i scurry about on my abstract way).
Beth,tell the chilluns that if they don't behave,they'll grow up to be Remittance Men,in some forbidding environs such as these,and Then they'll be sorry!

[jawno]

I started reading this thread back in July and then it disappeared off my radar for some reason until a couple weeks ago when I found it again. It had grown to thirty seven pages. took me two weeks to read it and by the time I was done it was forty one pages and still going. I think the fact that I read it all says a lot about how interesting of a thread it is. It could almost be distilled into a book. the only thing missing is the happy or tragic conclusion where Beth learns to weld (or doesn't) and Jake finds the gothic symbiosis in the metal (or doesn't). I must say this has been most entertaining and am looking on with baited breath for the next chapter. Will Jeremy get the forge going? Will John be crowned the true oracle of iron? Only those who read I forge iron will ever know.
Great read, I wish all you the best, except for maybe the "count" who would wither under the praise. good luck.
Please keep this most entertaining read going. I must say I've learned a lot through your trials and tribulations. I simply MUST fire up my forge now and learn what the iron has to say to me.

[beth]

jawno - thats really funny! i laughed out loud when i read it - i sometimes forget that the general public may occassionally take a look at this thread!!! :D

[Randy]

Jake, your handle is beautiful. By doing we learn. And you are really doing. Great job! Great pics, too. Can you see Russia from there? Had to ask. ;-)

Back to the production work...I took this shot years ago when I finally finished all those scrolls for that 80' balcony. A reminder NOT to do that again and to choose more wisely what I do. It's titled, "buried in my work", literally. I have it in my shop so I don't forget.

[jeremy k]

Jake - Your hardware is coming along great - I can't wait to see how the wood carving turns out, - your a master of absrtact - I like it!!!

Jawno - Will I get my forge going???? yes, it has been this last couple weeks. If your refering to the meat fork - yes that is up close to the top of the list to finish.

[bigfootnampa]

I really like this handle Jake!!! As a woodworker also I do have a feel for the wood iron combos but this would be nice in any case. More than any other piece that I have seen of yours I think that this one displays your unusual vision and unique use of traditional techniques to create a very original piece with an old time feel about it! I can't wait to see it finished! I am a fan of your work in general but this is particularly exciting! This is more sculpture than just straight forging IMO! And SCULPTURE... WOW my knees used to go weak at the sight of sculpture magazine on the bookstore shelves! This is the Bowie knife of door handles!

[bigfootnampa]

Oh yeah and here you are dueling Fe on the banks of the Yukon... practically a sandbar right?

[jake pogrebinsky]

Aw,you guys,nobody believes me when i say that it's not me,it's only the material that looks so cool!
It's wonderful,though,to be in the company of friends and peers,it makes a huge difference to the work day at anything creative...

This is but a quick note,grub-up,and changing phases from iron to woodshop.Wish that i could respond in detail.

Randy,great shot!Any more,of detail or the thing complete?And,of course,Ah can see Russia raht from mah front door!(Or the back one,whatever,you're just trying to discredit me with them trick questions!).

Clay,is there a significance to the Duel on the Sandbar?I'm sorry,i'm just a hick,not familiar with the allusion.If you mean purely geologically,it's a tough call:This(the North)bank of the Yukon is the lip,the very brim,of the Kaltag fault(the largest in N.America).It's where the two different tectonic plates meet,the South one diving under the North,pushing up a range of hills in the process.
Technically,there's very little sand here,it's all glacial silt(although the Yukon valley itself,almost a quarter of a mil.sq.miles,has never been glaciated.It's deposited here by the Yukon from the tributaries further up).

Very quick view of forging today-one,ONE(!),piddly escutcheon...For a handle from the previously aborted project...That's Somehow shall be made to rotate upon the door,too tired to think through that,now(but never too tired to do 8 times more forging because of the lack of planning...A mystery!).
That was one GNARLY-unrefined WI,welding heat-every heat,i need to be whipped for this foolishness,it crosses all bounds(wasted time-wise especially).

[beth]

lordy jake - i cant keep coming up with more compliments for you..... the whole thing/things look stunning, i just love it - we know we all love it - all i know is, despite your protestations and pleas for punishment i, for one, want to live in a world that looks like your work. i just do. its pointless wishing it were my work, its yours, and its come from your hands. your on a totally creative roll up in your hinterland, and we all want a slice of it am very excited for you and on your behalf. i know your all wrapped up in the technical "mistakes" but my role is to respond from the heart, and its SUCH an easy job with your work, its exactly as i would imagine a fairy tale russian house to look - with that kind of stuff all over it.... thats probably p****d you off hugely, a look your trying to avoid? big foot - your right - it is sculpture, its heavenly. jake i'll say it one more time, incase there was any doubt, I LOVE IT. pleeeease keep producing this stuff.....

randy thats a mad shot - would love also to see it when its done?? im drawing today for the gallery, its funny i drag myself mentally from back and forth - when i look on here i wonder what im doing not getting to grips with this, and spending every hour at my anvil.... but im at the moment, concentrating on other stuff, which i feel i need to do too ...... life is WAY too short... thing is, if i cant make the work look like something out of the bros grimm, i dont want to do it..... jake you inspire me massively . thankyou Count

ps beauteous pictures of the river WOWee, beauty, breath taking - its always a pleasure to see others enviroments - especially when they are as good to look at as yours - and thanks for the career advice for the chitterlings, not that they listen to me much .. :)

[bigfootnampa]

Holy Moly!! It's a pretty cool escutcheon though Jake! Yeah the sandbar duel of 1827 in which James Bowie was shot three times and stabbed at least twice was a famous event. 16 men were there and nearly all considered Bowie to be the most dangerous man among them. When the aftermath of the duel degenerated into a vicious brawl several of the men attempted to eliminate Bowie as they feared him. He killed a couple and apparently amazed (or wounded) the rest with his knife wielding skills. Bowie survived the event and became quite famous as word spread quickly of his awesome and DEADLY skill with a knife! It was not long before American smiths were unable to supply the demand for "Bowie" knives and thousands were imported from England to supply the men who wanted them. To this very day knives loosely associated with Bowie's knife dominate the production of the American Bladesmith Society members.

[Randy]

Jake, does the form of the metal parts of the handle come from anything in particular? The forms seem familiar, like the zodiac signs. Is this supposed to represent anything in particular or just how the metal wanted to go? Often my mind plays tricks on me by putting shapes in my work that I don't recall yet may have seen in much earlier experiences. Your handle is sinuous and has such life to it. Being around nature the iron will grow by feeding it fire and coaxing it with hammer and anvil, as it came from the ground and coming to life is just what it wants to do. Looking forward to seeing the form of the finished wood and the union of parts.

I'll have to do some digging to find those balcony pics. That was about 20 years ago.

zodiac.bmp

[beth]

randy - sinuous - extremely good word in this conversation - thats a Beautiful description... those shapes of jakes resonate from a thousand places really dont they - yes, zodiacal signs, also - celtic, minoan, persian, pychadelic, ye olde russian, even led zep stage art all manner of ancient places - thats why we love them, they are from simplest of symbols, made real, last night or whenever he did them... fantastic .

[jake pogrebinsky]

Ouch.Clay,i hang my head in shame...I always prided meself on learning all that i could of American history,and here i didn't have ANY idea of the Duel on the Sandbar!
Thanks a lot,and for the rest of info on the Bowie knives too,had no idea why was it that so many were imported.This is great,and ridiculous in the same time,i mean-how much does a stupid blacksmith,busy at the forge all the time,must learn?!EVERYTHING,is the correct answer!
This truly is great!

Randy,i'm having a tough time with that file,but i'll try again.

I've mentioned my ignorance,stylistically,several times,and i mean it,my head is full of undifferentiated imagery,working it's way out occasionally like the porcupine quills out of a dog.
It's rare that i'll attempt a definite style,because of my debility,mainly.Won't be able to pull it off.
But in that doorhandle,kinda,VERY vaguely,i was trying to explore some of the Celto/Norse design elements(as processed through my bad brain).
What it amounts to,as usual,is stealing an element,and not being able to consistently stay with a given style,plugging it into a lattice of Arts&Crafts/Art-deco sort of hodge-podge.Like using the words from an unfamiliar language in a stream of another,or pretending to speak one that you only know a few words of!
The trouble is that many design features that i covet come not from iron,but from wood,stone,non-ferrous work,and all else.It translation,they loose their character,leaving me with a bunch more experience,but not much knowledge.I'm sort of a loose cannon in the design dept.

Clay compares this to a duel,but my deal with the iron is probably more like sex.Sex among the animals that find it painful and uncomfortable,like the tigers,say.In the end we both end up scratched and bitten and exhausted,but,possibly,fertilised

Beth,you're a very kind,but also a very knowledgable and astute critic,i'd not be offended by anything that you may say,at all!But the allusion the the Russian Fairy Tale stylistic i find most flattering!There's lots there that is really appealing,much N.European stuff in general(like those Norwegian doors that we've been gawking at all that time ago),but also much of it's own,unique coolness!
Forging in any Fairy Tale sort of style is very appealing,and forgiving of fudge,as i imagine it,i should try to do more in that way!

I'm over-extended,there's simply not enough of me.It's a bad habit,but whenever i work i'm designing,i never have a complete plan.So,anytime that i try to cram,it ends up looking lousy,i can only produce decent work if i'm not exhausted.I'll just have to admit defeat,finish what i've started,and call it good.I'm about screwed for producing more work as it'd just take away from the whole.Only a week left till i'm in town,and the Missionary trip begins.

Not much progress on the handle for all the above reasons,and i'm not even doing justice to that beautiful chunk of hickory.The design was simple,but i didn't manage to pull it offgracefully,not this time.We'll just have to live to ...(duel )another day!

[jake pogrebinsky]

Wow,Randy,those Zodiac symbols All look forged!What a great bunch of shapes+ideas that one could develop from that!

[jawno]

Jeremy, My bad. I seem to be mixing my characters here. I was referring to Jakes friend in Fairbanks, Brian. My apologies to you.

Now where is that picture of myhand?

Sorry not much from me on the philosophical end of things.

[beth]

jawno - give us your hand.....
jake - im concerned that your permenently exhausted, i know youve got your revival sermon drawing near, but you yourself say, your not so productive when exhuasted... take care of yourself my friend, your message must not be diluted in anyway, and Overworking may be a false economy... get some SLEEP....this is pointless advice, as im sure you can function no other way. sorely tempted to comment on the tigers and the fertilising Fe deal, but , for once, will keep my trap shut! :)

[jake pogrebinsky]

Ok,Beth,we'll let that tiger-molesting issue rest...(what about bears?)

I remembered the motto of Evergreen State college in Olympia,Washington,today(great school,Matt Gruening graduated from there,among many other oddballs):Omni Extrarres,Let it All Hang Out.
It woulda made a good name for this thread

I'm sorry,i think that you're right in that when the physiology suffers so does the quality of work.One eventually ends up spending all the time chasing one's own tail...

Jawno,welcome to the monkeyhouse...

[bigfootnampa]

Nice looking poster Jake! Have FUN with your exhibit and your presentation! Be yourself, you are plenty interesting! Most of the work is done so enjoy the schmoozing and make some good contacts! Lots of shows of this type are like icebergs... sales at the show are dwarfed by the future business wrought through the contacts and publicity that are generated. So that what you see is only the small tip of the whole (like an iceberg).

[jake pogrebinsky]

Thank you,Clay,(you insist on treating me as a normal human being,and i'm grateful for that).
I do hear tell that it's very much as you've described,at the events of this sort.
I'd like to say something disparaging about the better-heeled part of the Alaskan humanity,but i better not-the life likes to rub my nose in my messes of this sort,more so even as i get older,so i'd better leave it at that.
Frankly,i don't do a face to face craftsman/client dance very well,the freakiness creeps out at some point,i'd have preferred to remain in the shadows.
There's an old,stupid,piece of Alaskan humor:"Q:What do Alaskan men use for birth control?.....A:Their personalities".
It's kinda what i do,in spades.But we'll see.
I also have to behave because i've so many friends in all kinds of responsible positions at the university,and in general,Alaska is tiny,socially,and when/if i hurt someone's feelings wether in fun,or defending my odd convictions,or just out of carelessness,the repercussions reverberate for years,i'd be best to be absolutely discreet at a gathering like this.
I'll also be there selling nothing at all,exept the IDEA of hiring me or someone else,to make bespoke ironwork for their home.
I should make one of them spike-hooks,and if someone wants any of those recommend Jeremy.Stuff like that,i'll just be a missionary.
By the way,Clay,may i please ask what the % of C you have in your scythe?Even approx.,are they about medium C alloy,or on the higher end?

[bigfootnampa]

Jake the scythes that I have forged myself are approximately 1035 to 1045 so toward the lower middle carbon range. My scythe book says that the Austrian forges use something nearer 1090 though, and that they are heat treated to be pretty hard too. Files will just barely cut most of my scythe blades (whether my own or factory made blades). It is (IME) better to use a rather coarse scythestone for honing and I like the flap wheel and 4 1/2" grinder for cutting a new bevel.

[beth]

you guys make scythes too ???? too fabulous....
jake your flyer is indeed interesting - looks like a similar deal to the exhibition and handmade sale mine is in, although im not clever enough to have put any iron work in... cant get it to look anywhere near good enough.....was going to attatch my flyer to show you but its not letting me upload - had a lovely other picture for you too, but it will have to wait till i can get it on here..
i entirely understand you paranoia of the customer client whatever dance - its truly hideous, FAR easier to talk about ALmost anything else!!!!... i am like a worm on a hook at the show im in when anyone wants to talk about the work - practically puking with the horror of it all,,, ( how will i ever sell anything ??) you dont have to sell out to this S**T either jake - you can remain yourself, and still not offend the whole population of alaska This Is Possible. You can retain your semi-rebel stance and be taken seriously (by those that matter ) thats my opinion anyway - if you start that horrid dance - god only knows where it will End. (maybe an elaborate intro to, say, sex with Fe in the Form of a Tiger grrrr! (or Bear - but tiger resonates better ..) that would set the cat amoungst the pigeons.. ) i hope youre actually feeling the genuine support from us all in the monkey house, we are all willing you on to take our shared message/love to the world at large, or at least alaska at large. hey - im well into that book, its gripping and beautiful :)THANKYOU.!

[bigfootnampa]

Aaahh yes the "Boho" dance (Timothy Leary's name for it). Well I may not do it well myself... but I do know how to be honest and genuinely interested in and caring about people. I find that that approach brings me customers who become friends and I like to work that way.

Alaska is not too different than the rest of the world when it comes to being like village life. Social scientists and statisticians have calculated that if you listed everyone you know and then they listed everyone they know etcetera by the seventh round everyone on earth would be listed and on average, several times. Forbes magazines listing of Mark Zuckerberg (Facebook founder and CEO) as the ninth most powerful person in the world is a sort of confirmation of this.

Let us go forth and commit forgery! Uuumm well that doesn't quite seem to read properly... but you know what I mean!