John B Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 Its tough being a missionary Jake, but keep at it, If I can assist in any way please feel free to ask.. Its part of our Guilds constitution and reason d'etre, promoting blacksmithing, and maintaining, developing and training using traditional blacksmithing methods. I am pleased to say we have one or two upcoming 'trainees' who may go on to take this forward. One of our past secretaries and ex member now lives in Canada and runs a succesful forge there along with her husband. Others are in Swden, France and Spain, so we too are trying to spread the Gospel of blacksmithing as best we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 I will totally be at your exibit Jake. I would love it if you opened a shop here. And I would also love it if you used my internet. Doors always open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I wish I was closer - I'd stop in to see the show, and hear the lecture. I would really enjoy that.always fun to meet ppl from IFI. Everyone so far has been more that expected, Ive had the pleasure to meet quite a few - far from total members but most that I chat with and comunicate via the forums and or e-mail. Great crew as far as I'm concerened, No worries Jake, I'll keep coming up with some hair brained ideas to keep this thread going I'm sure. Like I said before - I'll have to read back a bunch and get my head around all the info in here in this thread. I may have to print it all and re-read some parts and use some for later. I do enjoy the aspects of the forging that we have covered so far and the realistic uses / techiniques / designs. It all is part of a vast metalic world that one can never learn overnight, or by asking - "tell me what I need to know - please". It's a lifetime of experiences, reading, looking, hearing, and the most fun of all - actually Doing some forging. When one gets it in your blood, your life revolves around it - even if it's subconciously. At the very least, the more you learn about forging the more you are apt to be in tune to noticing some fine work (or any at all ) that has been forged, or your ears will perk up at mention of blacksmithing, forging, etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 jk - i second that - wouldnt it be cool if we could all go and see jakes talk and be his keen supporters with our heckling and encouragement :0 would be brilliant he is indeed a missionary, as john said, which is traditionally a task of many traumas - jake bravely offering the wonderful wrought Fe to the unsuspecting Joe Public... we wish you well jake , and franklly, cant easily manage without you, but manage we will, jk - your at the helm, captain Jeremy, you can lead us to new waters while our High Priest goes forth on his crusade, now is your chance so show us your bonkers MADNESS and bring PW into the debate .... all the while being mentored and guided by the sage, The Oracle, for which we daily give thanks and hmmmm.... can i be ships boy or something, cook? clean the decks? man over board? - or i can sit in the crows nest and be the first to see Land how about that. ive not much to add at the moment, the skills having gone way way over my head, but im still listening, please dont give up lads when we are so near to reaching Fe Nirvana :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Thank all of you good folks for the support,most humbly.All of your offers of help have,in fact,already been accepted-i've been getting ready for this since i've gotten the letter of acceptance,in May,and each and every one of you has helped in this process so very much... In a way,i'm glad that there'll be few of you that can make it to the event:For one,i'm not sure how well i can put it all verbally,and will possibly embarass myself in that process,and as for the 2-day showdown in the museum...The time has been so short,woefully so,what can one guy possibly make in this short period,to make a statement on behalf of 5000+years of quality ironwork?! So that whole scene may also turn quite embarassing... My own "style" is a specific one,and not for everyone.And,this will not be the right sort of event to make a pitch for the World's history of Forging Tradition,as,in effect,it's nothing but a Christmas Bazaar,albeit with pretensions. It's possible that i may come across some venues by means of which to continue the missionary work in the future.There is a large(-ish),State-sponsored gallery,that does a few fairly responsible,juried shows a year.As Alaska is really all one small town,everyone knows each other,i do know quite a few people involved,and may try to set something up for the future. But the biggest obstacles to anything of this sort are these same,oh-so-human qualities that interfere with everything valid since the dawn of time:"Laziness and Stupidity" Combined with an overwhelming degree of Ignorance,they're the dominant traits in all Alaskan institutions,private and public,but the State-supported ones-especially! Unfortunately,Ironwork is so time,energy,and all other resource-demanding,that traditionally,only the very mightiest institutions were behind it's advancement.Like John so astutely interprets the socio-economics of forging,above,it was largely bankrolled by the Aristocracy,often,on behalf of the Church.There're actually two important reasons for that:Money,of course,to make-up that resousce-intensiveness,but also the Divine as the inspiration.Such is the nature of human psychology,we'll go far to get rich,but put even more effort into something when inspired by the Intangible The "aristocracy",the wealthy,have always been slaves to the fashion of the day.They,generally,didn't really act independently of each other,but more like a group,reacting to whatever was the current stimulus.In Alaska,currently,the've the most vulgar tastes imaginable,and re-educating them is a Herculean chore much like mucking out them infamous stables. The Church,not having built any cathedrals for a long time now,is going broke in Alaska,trying to pay off all the molestation lawsuites,and cannot represent much of a hope for a crusader on behalf of an Iron Renaissance... Where's the werewithal to keep the tradition of forging alive to come from,then?That is the question... But,i digress...I'll try to upload a couple shots of a funky variety of a cleft-weld that i'm going to attempt here,as soon as i get off my duff.And,in the future,will try to stay closer to the subject of metalwork,as i tend to wonder too far out when thinking of things that are too far outside my usual scope... P.S.Nope,the photos won't fly today.Probably for the best,will try to post the made weld,IF it sticks. The VERY best of forging to everyone!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hey,it worked,all of a sudden.O.k.,here's the deal(i'm posting this at least in part for John,as we often discuss issues for which i fail to provide the particulars.So here are some details about my process). The stock for this stage of process(the Gothic project).I've not tried this chain before.It's more corroded than other stuff i have(i'll use it to blame the weld failures on). Here's the stock that it made.Note how some of the imperfections are still there(and more,possibly,will show up from inside later): After a funky,skewed upset,the end is hot-split in a crude,quick-and-dirty,upsetting matrix: The split is further widened/shaped with a set-tool: Now,this is the proposed weld,to an upright of one of the candlesticks.The trouble is that it'll have to be simultaneously from both sides,wings-like. To attempt to keep it symmetrical,will try to weld in that same matrix in the vise. Speaking of texture-as-forged:The last few months i'm on the diet of spruce charcoal.I get this wood out of the river,it's driftwood.Some of it has been floating a long time,all of it-grew on the banks of the Muddy Yukon.The glacial silt content in the river is intense-very muddy water.The air,too,is full of air-born silt.So,i suppose,is the wood itself. The silt is glacial,and mostli cilicate in it's nature(i suppose,not being a geologist). Anyway,here's a photo of a clinker that it makes after 3-4 welds.I usually clean out at these intervals(i do use borax liberally,which,i believe,contributes to the clinker in some mysterious way): Cheers,all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Hi Jake, re money spent in churches by the 'nobility' Mostly I think they were trying to buy a place in the afterlife, and leaving something there so the peasantry thought they had something to be grateful for and for them to be noted in history if they had not made any other notable contribution to be remembered for. The chain should have been a reasonably good grade iron. You could try folding it once or twice or consolidate a couple together, and then flatter it to see what the surface finish comes out like. From the crusty appearance in a couple of places, it looks like you may have burnt the metal. I don't think I would have approached that joint in that manner. My approach would have been to split the upright and then weld prepped a tenon type scarf. The reason for this is I would be hedging my bets and my underdeveloped forge welding skills to try and make a unified joint with maximum holding power (to my mind) You don't get the heat sapping away as you faff about trying to hold it and hammer from both sides etc Get them both to welding heat, All you have to do then is place the candle stick stem over a bolster/ hardie hole/slot in a swage block, seat in the arm and close the weld, back into the fire and consolidate using a suitable round swage to finish the weld. That way you would be less liable for the scarfs to peel off and its far easier to handle during the process, the arm becoming a useful handle plus one or two other advantages re shape and flowing form etc and the joint becoming a feature in its own right, it can be thinned down to what you like to suit your design. Anyway thats my approach, but what do I know about it, just food for thought. For your approach I would have considered more of a wrap joint as on a axe head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Just finishing a quick lunch here,and after reading your post,am (naturally )wishing that i'd have spoken up about it BEFORE! But i'm all scraved-up,now,and there's no turning back (I'll remember to compare notes in the future,as that idea of yours would've saved me quite a bit of forging already,and an unknown as yet quantity of misery in the next couple of hours But,like a great man said:"Only the blue sky,and the green grass,are forever...It is a GOOD day to die!" :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Look forward to your results and pics. Willing you on ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Wow, I get so much from reading this. Thank you to all who have contributed. I havn't had much chance ot work on anything in the last few weeks but that is about to change. My work preperations for winter are finally finished. The roof is done, the pole barn is skinned and the wood is stacked and ready. So, now I can concentrate on really important things. Like knives, and forks and making sure I don't burn my steel. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 "the pole barn is skinned ".........Bryan, what do you do with the hide from a pole barn? A pole cat I know, but from a pole barn ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Well!It was a battle royal!And i lost it... I suspected that i might get stubborn,and it did.Just would not stick to the other stuff.To itself-all you want,to anything else-no. So,i got stubborn.Pretty soon,we all were stubborn,and it still wasn't happening. So i tried to trick it,and riveted it.But,the unplanned/riveted scarfs looked awful. So then i welded the whole mess! And now it looks even more awful! That steel may be entirely carbonless...It's melting temperature is it's MELTING temp,it doesn't burn,like all the decent steel!As you can see from the photos,we went there,into liquidus,for a little bit! It was IT's fault-all it had to do was to weld,and i wouldn't have been so mean to it! Tomorrow i may forge a new part(s),or forge the molten mess into Art,or any number of other options. Still another cross-piece to make,but this one may be all riveted and morticed John,i didn't want to do this,didn't think that it was a good joint,but wasn't not sure what other joint may've been better(nothing would've stuck anyway,this thing was a b...d (this is spoken by a masochist who've burned the Cr out of leafsprings to weld them in...)Hey,this is a cool expression-to burn the Cr out of X,a sight more creative than Sh ). I actually couldn't even think of a good mechanical joint,either,that's why i've tried something that silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 "the pole barn is skinned ".........Bryan, what do you do with the hide from a pole barn? A pole cat I know, but from a pole barn ??? Well, I thought they would make good seat covers for the truck. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Hi Jake, I'm going to backtrack a bit here and go back to basics, and I am not trying to be patronising, but because I have been trying to deal with individual issues as they have arisen, and the project evolved, and they have not been based on the full facts/situation from the start for whatever reason, I think we have gone off at a bit of a tanget which may not have helped. From what you have there, it is feasible to do it as you have. (an hour or two with a welder and an angle grinder and you wouldn't recognise it as the same piece, or you could try caulking it with some more material at welding heat if you want traditional) When doing a traditional project it is advisable to plan it out quite carefully in your head if not on paper or other medium You can then think of the sequence(s) required to secure it together, the joints to use to achieve the look, and how you are going to handle the pieces during the processes. I can see now why you thought the way you proposed to weld the legs on would be a good way to try, my comment on that would have been to jump up the centre spindle, try a lap weld on one side, then a lap weld on the opposite side, then consolidate. Do you have pics of the process you have used as it evolved, as this may lead to an alternative method as what you have there as it looks pretty cumbersome to handle. Did you secure the candle cup and sconce before trying to weld on the side arms? My suggestion would be to leave off the section to the candle cup, Make your two arms with ends scarfed and weld the two arms on directly to the end of the piece which looks like a carpet beater Scarf this jointed end and add your stem for the candle to this, Then cut off any excess and make the tenon for the drip tray/sconce at the dimension you want it to be for the proportions you feel ideal Adjust the arms to conform to the shape you want and cold fit them to the other pieces I usually find it best to leave final securing and fitting 'til as late as possible, and then secure all the smaller units before securing the whole, this depends obviously on the design and structure as to how this is gone about Then when reasonably happy with the overall effect you can start the securing processes, and again you need to work out a logical plan to achieve this. This applies to most projects, large or small. And this is a good example of why a plan is advisable. In fact from the first pic it does not look too bad from afar, bit more to do, but too far in to not complete it. Keep the faith, spread the word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 John,thank you,you're very kind to've gone through how the entire sequence should have been arranged,and you're absolutely right!(The word "Patronising" cannot possibly apply here,other than in it's most benign meaning).This is all about learning,and all of us here are VERY lucky to have great advice freely,kindly granted to us here,again,it's a priviledge!. You're absolutely right about the Order of Sequencing.It's very,crucially important,or one steps on one's own tail all the time.With smaller/heavier parts,and especially ones toward the ends,where they can be added on later,doubly so! Right after sequencing,the schedule of all joinery should be established,the necessary tooling for it made,and tested,on similar stock size of same material.(Yesterday i had to drop everything to make a bolster-plate for the tenons that i was making,as the size/shape of them only developed during the process.That was bad and wrong,it should of been in the plan,and all ready to go). I'm basically repeating,reiterating what you've said,John.For my own benefit,and for those that may be reading this.And while at it,there's another thing that is important,that i'd love to repeat here,though it's acsiomatic to you,John: When making ANY part of ANY project,have it come out smooth and even,with no hammer-marks visible.It is a sign of being in CONTROL.If you're not in complete control,it can,and will,come out in other aspects of the job,such as planning,finishing,or all in between. John would tell you this,coming as he does from classical tradition.I've come to this coming from no tradition at all.It's an important point upon which all forging paths converge. The more i learn,the more i realise the importance of,seemingly,trite truisms.Don't do as i do,don't learn the hard way,it's heartless-hard! I excercise SOME controlled forging,i'll try to post a series of photos of a fairly controlled sequence here in a minute.Some day i MAY get good enough to gain control of the WHOLE of the project. So,one of the points here is to not undertake a job that greatly exceeds your ability.If you can't keep it under control,back up,practice some more on the level that you CAN control. Amen to all that John said,and thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Ok,many(all?)of my struggles/failures in this job are attributable to a lack of foresight,and subsequent planning. The reasons for it are many and sundry,and mostly fall outside of the scope of our inquiry But here are a few things that illustrate how it can,and SHOULD be done: The plan is on the rusty flat plate,in soapstone.It is 1:1,a complete outline of what i need. I've my stock in approx.the right basic shape,and my plan is made.I start at one end,forging an upset for a cleft-weld that i plan on making(now we know that i've failed at actually accomplishing it,however,it WAS planned logically.The drawn-out sharp tips at the top of the scarf were specifically to help me start that weld-to reach into the fire,without disturbing the 3 parts or the heat surrounding them,and to pinch-weld those sharp points to the main,central part. Like we all know,the weld has failed.I knew it right away by how it felt pinching those.They actually held together a couple of different times enough for me to've lifted the entire construct out of the fire(that's the idea of a pinch-weld,to allow one to handle the parts being welded as One unit).But the bond was weak,something was wrong,and a hammer-blow or two later the parts fell apart. In any case,this is as far as i work that one end before reversing the pieces. Now,switched to the other end,i cut the stock off,leaving enough extra for the tenons that'll need to be forged on that end. This material is a fibrous WI,so that the direction of fibres is important.They need to follow the tenon,thus the bend. Both pieces are worked together,in the same fire,one after another,repeating the blows administered to each.They're a simple shape,and could've(SHOULD'VE)been made smooth and regular.But most importantly-identical. At this point i had to interrupt the process,and make a bolster-plade and a drift,for the proposed tenons.As John points out in a neighboring thread,it's EASIER to fit a TENON to a MORTICE,then vice versa.So here i make sure that my mortising drift is made,use it to form the bolster,and shape the tenons using that future mortice shape. The parallel lines on the sketch are the uprights,for which i'm building a diagonal knee-braces.So all the dimentions are critical,and i'm beginning to work closer to the drawing. And that's basically,it.Another picture showing that i'm as close as i needed to be. But,possibly,John may comment on what else one could have done,to gain,and to maintain,the greatest degree of control of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 P.S. A word about the tenon/mortice:A tenon,(like a rivet which it is in principle(in this case)),is a parallelogram. A mortice,through which it'll be rivetted,is NOT.It,like many forged orifices,is a trapezoid,with it's slope off of vertical about 1:7 That is,roughly,what the bevel of most punches,drifts,and corresponding to them headers,is.The reason for it is twofold: 1.The release.Parallel-sided drift would be very difficult to dislodge.Parallel-sided bolster/header would also be hard to get the part headed to get out of. 2.In a rivetted joint(some of these),the strengh doesn't come from the head,but from the upset that fills the trapezoidal mortice.It's a cone with a wide end outward,the flare of which the male part should upset into. It doesn't have to be that way,but it's handy,since many tools need to be tapered anyhoo,as for the reason #1.But if employed so,it's of course important to keep track of which end is which. Also,on a different issue:The precision that i work to,usually,is about +/- 1/8".It's kind of sad,as in my past life as a framer i've worked to a 1/16" on a much larger object such as the whole house...However,that seems what i'm good for,while i can't come any closer,at least.It works OK. But that is what i measure,cut,or draw/upset to,in all cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Hi Jake, I know you favour your cleft weld and nip technique, and that's your choice. We are still dealing with an isolated situation here. Look to what you require for the end result you need. For that application my first choice would be to weld the two legs and centre spindle as a 'bundle weld' (as JK did on the other project, but this time just the three pieces) and I would not be afraid to bring the leg ends in close to the main spindle prior to attempting to weld them to allow easy manipulation in the fire, they can be rearranged after the welding is done. Don't make it hard for yourself, Heat and bending forks will make it easy to rearrange and adjust the legs to where you want them after they are secured, and the top end welded on Knock your scarfed pieces into line so they lie on the centre section, (Now we are going to try to use a scarf that is not designed for this type of weld, I would just leave a 'lump' of appropriate size on the end) and secure the pieces together for welding, One other technique that could be used here is each side arm positioned on the centre bar from both sides. To secure them it was common practice to secure the two arms in place on the centre shaft by using horse shoe nails as rivets, this will give positive location throught the welding/handling. and then weld them on. or use tongs or wire on When that joint is completed, then a straigthforward lap/drop tong weld to get the top part of the spindle secured to the joint and dressed in to flow. Whichever method you use, you will have to upset the material on the centre stem to allow for wastage, better to draw down and dress in than to be too thin. When you speak of accuracy, Don't be too concerned, Very early on when I switched to ornamental smithing as opposed to industrial smithing, I had to make a conscious decision to widen the tolerances I worked to. It's blacksmithing, not precision engineering. Try and think "Blacksmithing" how would they have done that? Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 It helps indeed,John,i'm most grateful for your taking the time to write out such a detailed process.Thanks. I'm afraid that it's too late for this particular job,i'm too far into it at this point.Here's how i ended up with this one joint looking: It's awfull,technically speaking,but is not too different from many other joints of this piece. I'll just finish this one up in a haphazard manner that became my style on this. Nothing to be proud of,but simply a (possible)"save",of much time and fuel. And much learning accomplished. Now i've some more photos from yesterday's forging session,but am having difficulty loading them.May have to wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Yep,it's ironic how on this particular job,which is my attempt to pay homage to English architectural heritage,i'm loosing control so badly! For it is characteristic of the British ironwork in particular to be meticulous in planning and execution both,with the forging marks cleaned up,et c. The answer is simple-i've stepped too far outside of my experience and capability,have challenged meself too steeply. Now,it's but a Sculpture,that will still hopefully reflect the grace of the lines that went to comprise much of the Gothic period work,and not at all the technical level of the execution... Ah,well,i might as well keep going,chalk all this up to experience,and get it done the best that i can. Next,or sometime soon,i'd like to do a simple,perhaps,English object,but this time do it Right,try to attempt the Planning and the Finish that set the English style apart. Yesterday,i've worked on the next set of bracing for the project.The idea is to suspend the Carpet Beater between the two other uprights independently. So i felt like it needed a second set of bracing,aesthetically,as well,i wanted this to be there. The plan,found and laid down using some lead solder:First the shape,then,by straightening the lead,the exact lenghts. The material: ,then into this: A part forged out and set in, where it'll become the ring,(requiring a couple of quick faggot welds first,to form those sharpish corners): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 This thing is really troublesome today...Anyway,the complete parts: Tough day at the forge yesterday.One of these had to be re-made,due to my planning turning out to be inferior,and the plan to do all the welding before much shaping didn't help the matters. The north wind,so atypical for here,was blowing the forge exhaust back in,choking me all day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 jake thats wise words about stepping out of zone etc - something i try to do far too often - im learning from watching you learn! albeit your doing same thing but on a higher level. i think you should def finish it, it is a milestone of sorts always when so much thought has gone in and so many leaps of learning - please finish it!!! youve been an inspiration showing us the steps of all this, you and john its got to be balanced - the enthusiasm, balanced always with a clear head and methodical planning and paying attention - am STAGGERED literally by the realisation of all the nec planning involved in proper iron work - the sort i aspire to - and its all been rea don this thread im so sorry youve been choke all day , not the same as deliberate smoking is it ? encouraging vibes sent to you :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 i think gradualy its a combination of passion free form and over doing it a bit, then calming down and getting it right and so on back and forth like a natural cycle, of excitement finally feeding concrete learning - as you say - all will be well :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 And here's why i needed those. I was hoping to get at least a couple of mortices in yesterday,to no longer have to wire the whole together to look at it as a unit,but it was not to be. Maybe today i'll have better luck. I do like where things are going design-wise,just too bad that i failed to match that by quality of execution.So much to be learned,at every juncture!!! So,i've these four braces,each joining the uprights at each end.Two of those are already welded. The tenons that i made yesterday will be rivetted in their mortices,leaving the 3 uprights still unattached. Then,i'll close the two top tenons.That will connect the whole,making it cumbersome to handle. But,it'll leave only the two last brace-ends to attach. That last connection will be rivetted. All this because i don't own a torch set,and have to use the forge to rivet over the tenons,therefore,the whole must fit into the forge,and not be too awkward to handle. All this MUST be done at the planning stage,forseen,and calculated. It's actually easier than it sounds,but paying attention to it is critical,of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Thanks,Beth,your encouragement means a Great deal to me.Altogether,everyone here has helped a lot on this,with their kind attention and wise remarks. It's so cool to be working in your company,folks,thanks! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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